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Mods have always been told that subreddits are their spaces to operate and that as long as they're not breaking any of the site-wide rules, they are free to do

Mods have always been told that subreddits are their spaces to operate and that as long as they're not breaking any of the site-wide rules, they are free to do whatever they wish. This is a violation of that trust.

satvikpendem 3y ago
How can anyone sincerely believe that being a user, even a mod, on another platform by a corporate entity lets them have their own space? I mean, of course the company owns everything one does or publishes on said platform. There is no trust because the premise is faulty in the first place. The fact that people actually believed that is not really the problem of the platform, there is always inherent platform risk.
- throwaway25190 3y ago
  So maybe it's naive to think reddit wouldn't just seize control regardless of the "rules" (although I've seen plenty of posts from mods that mention this possibility). But that's not relevant to the question which is whether or not the moderators are moderating - as reddit is still using the rules as a pretense. I say to the mods, make it an easy answer, re-open the subs and remove every post that isn't a copy-paste of a stickied statement, something like that. Make them admit the rules were a convenient excuse for something they'd do anyway.
- jarfil 3y ago
  It is an issue of trust precisely because a third party controls the platform. If mods actually owned the infrastructure for their spaces, there would be no trust involved, they'd just own it. In this case, mods trusted the company making a promise about the platform, breaking that promise breaks the trust in the company, and makes the platform risk plain to see for all.
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    One should never trust a corporation, who only acts in the interest of money, is my point. That they even trusted them in the first place is a gross misjudgment. It's not about what words a corporation utters, it's about what actions it takes that determines its value.
  - SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
    I don’t think any mod could possibly have thought Reddit was making such a strong promise. The moderator community has repeatedly asked Reddit to take an active stance in moderation disputes; the most recent blackout protest before this one was asking Reddit to prohibit Covid denialism.
- ddtaylor 3y ago
  Maybe they shouldn't have extended that much trust to Reddit as the company grew and changed, but that doesn't change the fact that Reddit admins are now lying. I don't really like this carte blanche idea that everyone is going to do bad things, so when you trusted them in the past it was your fault ideology.
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    > I don't really like this carte blanche idea that everyone is going to do bad things It's not about doing good or bad things, it's about following the incentives (cui bono?). Corporations are amoral entities that seek to maximize profits, just as living organisms are entities that seek to maximize reproductive success. There's nothing wrong with either incentive, but it's crucial to recognize that those are the incentives present instead of thinking that entities will instead act against their incentives for the sake of others (indeed, even cooperation and sometimes self-sacrifice, as in the case of ants, can lead to greater genetic dispersion of the individual). Therefore, in this case, there was no reason to trust Reddit admins on what they say, since at the end of the day, they will simply say whatever they want in order to pursue profit, which they are currently doing.
    - ddtaylor 3y ago
      > Corporations are amoral entities that seek to maximize profits The steps they take to obtain that goal matter a lot. If they went around literally stealing money from peoples wallets, we wouldn't just hand-wave it away and say "oh, they're amoral entities" > just as living organisms are entities that seek to maximize reproductive success We still consider it unethical to obtain that goal by any means necessary. > There's nothing wrong with either incentive I have nothing wrong with either incentive. Making a profit and reproducing are both great things. Doing either of them (or anything!) in unethical ways is the problem. > Therefore, in this case, there was no reason to trust Reddit admins on what they say What they have said in the past and what they have done WRT treating subreddits are "your space" is pretty consistent. We didn't just take their word for it. Their actions over the last 10 years in almost every circumstance has led us to believe this is the policy. > they will simply say whatever they want in order to pursue profit The public NEED to combat these kinds of problems by holding companies accountable. I would much rather live in a world where a company has to worry about lying to consumers because they will be held accountable than live in a world where anything a company says is ignored because we threw our hands up and said nobody can be trusted to any degree.
slaymaker1907 3y ago
> Subreddits belong to the community of users who come to them for support and conversation. Moderators are stewards of these spaces and in a position of trust. Redditors rely on these spaces for information, support, entertainment, and connection. https://old.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/14a5lz5/mod_code_of_conduct_rule_4_2_and_subs_taken/jo9wdol/?context=3 https://old.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/14a5lz5/mod_cod... I actually take issue with polling to shut down communities as well. Linux and many other huge FOSS projects effectively can't change their license because they are composites created from contributions of many people so you'd need to get _unanimous_ agreement from all those users to actually change the license. In fact, if a sub goes private, that content is still there, but even if you created the post/comment, you cannot edit/delete it without nuking your whole account!

satvikpendem 3y ago

How can anyone sincerely believe that being a user, even a mod, on another platform by a corporate entity lets them have their own space? I mean, of course the company owns everything one does or publishes on said platform. There is no trust because the premise is faulty in the first place. The fact that people actually believed that is not really the problem of the platform, there is always inherent platform risk.

throwaway25190 3y ago
So maybe it's naive to think reddit wouldn't just seize control regardless of the "rules" (although I've seen plenty of posts from mods that mention this possibility). But that's not relevant to the question which is whether or not the moderators are moderating - as reddit is still using the rules as a pretense. I say to the mods, make it an easy answer, re-open the subs and remove every post that isn't a copy-paste of a stickied statement, something like that. Make them admit the rules were a convenient excuse for something they'd do anyway.
jarfil 3y ago
It is an issue of trust precisely because a third party controls the platform. If mods actually owned the infrastructure for their spaces, there would be no trust involved, they'd just own it. In this case, mods trusted the company making a promise about the platform, breaking that promise breaks the trust in the company, and makes the platform risk plain to see for all.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  One should never trust a corporation, who only acts in the interest of money, is my point. That they even trusted them in the first place is a gross misjudgment. It's not about what words a corporation utters, it's about what actions it takes that determines its value.
- SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
  I don’t think any mod could possibly have thought Reddit was making such a strong promise. The moderator community has repeatedly asked Reddit to take an active stance in moderation disputes; the most recent blackout protest before this one was asking Reddit to prohibit Covid denialism.
ddtaylor 3y ago
Maybe they shouldn't have extended that much trust to Reddit as the company grew and changed, but that doesn't change the fact that Reddit admins are now lying. I don't really like this carte blanche idea that everyone is going to do bad things, so when you trusted them in the past it was your fault ideology.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  > I don't really like this carte blanche idea that everyone is going to do bad things It's not about doing good or bad things, it's about following the incentives (cui bono?). Corporations are amoral entities that seek to maximize profits, just as living organisms are entities that seek to maximize reproductive success. There's nothing wrong with either incentive, but it's crucial to recognize that those are the incentives present instead of thinking that entities will instead act against their incentives for the sake of others (indeed, even cooperation and sometimes self-sacrifice, as in the case of ants, can lead to greater genetic dispersion of the individual). Therefore, in this case, there was no reason to trust Reddit admins on what they say, since at the end of the day, they will simply say whatever they want in order to pursue profit, which they are currently doing.
  - ddtaylor 3y ago
    > Corporations are amoral entities that seek to maximize profits The steps they take to obtain that goal matter a lot. If they went around literally stealing money from peoples wallets, we wouldn't just hand-wave it away and say "oh, they're amoral entities" > just as living organisms are entities that seek to maximize reproductive success We still consider it unethical to obtain that goal by any means necessary. > There's nothing wrong with either incentive I have nothing wrong with either incentive. Making a profit and reproducing are both great things. Doing either of them (or anything!) in unethical ways is the problem. > Therefore, in this case, there was no reason to trust Reddit admins on what they say What they have said in the past and what they have done WRT treating subreddits are "your space" is pretty consistent. We didn't just take their word for it. Their actions over the last 10 years in almost every circumstance has led us to believe this is the policy. > they will simply say whatever they want in order to pursue profit The public NEED to combat these kinds of problems by holding companies accountable. I would much rather live in a world where a company has to worry about lying to consumers because they will be held accountable than live in a world where anything a company says is ignored because we threw our hands up and said nobody can be trusted to any degree.

slaymaker1907 3y ago

> Subreddits belong to the community of users who come to them for support and conversation. Moderators are stewards of these spaces and in a position of trust. Redditors rely on these spaces for information, support, entertainment, and connection. https://old.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/14a5lz5/mod_code_of_conduct_rule_4_2_and_subs_taken/jo9wdol/?context=3 https://old.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/14a5lz5/mod_cod... I actually take issue with polling to shut down communities as well. Linux and many other huge FOSS projects effectively can't change their license because they are composites created from contributions of many people so you'd need to get _unanimous_ agreement from all those users to actually change the license. In fact, if a sub goes private, that content is still there, but even if you created the post/comment, you cannot edit/delete it without nuking your whole account!