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After having the displeasure of visiting Frankfurt and having to spend about a month using the main train station... I have to agree. I didn't really understand

After having the displeasure of visiting Frankfurt and having to spend about a month using the main train station... I have to agree. I didn't really understand why junkies would line up at pharmacies until like the 3rd day... until I realized "oh, they get clean needles here". I used to be fairly libertarian on drugs, but having experienced the state of it in the U.S and Germany, and comparing with Asian countries like Singapore and Taiwan, I prefer the latter. I'd rather not see it. I'd rather the streets be clean. I'd rather feel safe going to the metro and having it not smell like urine and feces. If these are the two paths I have to choose, then ban the damn things.

freedomben 3y ago
This is the fallacy that the majority of people suffer from: if I don't see it, it doesn't happen. There are tons of functional, contributing people using drugs, but you don't know about it. All you saw are the people who have hit rock bottom and developed serious issues with them, and you've assumed they must be the only ones using dreugs and that drugs inevitably lead to that. It's a common error, but a big one nonetheless that leads to wildly unscientific conclusions. To then make or support policy based on those conclusions is extremely irresponsible.
- yadaeno 3y ago
  So you’re saying it’s a fallacy because Singapore and Taiwan are filled with high functioning heroin users? Draw a line on a bellcurve, the people on the right can use drugs safely without destroying their lives the people on the left cannot. GP is saying that for hard drugs, that line is a little to far to the right to sustain a clean and safe society so we should ban them all together. That might not be a reasonable option for western countries but lets not act like acknowledging that is a fallacy.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    > So you’re saying it’s a fallacy because Singapore and Taiwan are filled with high functioning heroin users? No, I'm not saying that at all. I have no idea the makeup of Singapore and Taiwan. I am saying that you can't take a heavily biased sample and make conclusions about the entire population. This is a well accepted reality in statistics. It's deeply unscientific and can lead to horrendously incorrect conclusions. Then making policies on those conclusions that can lead to death and/or imprisonment of people is at best grossly irresponsible.
- jterrys 3y ago
  >This is the fallacy that the majority of people suffer from: if I don't see it, it doesn't happen. My reply will be brutish. I know it happens. I just don't want to see it. I don't want to watch mothers with toddlers be solicited for change in the checkout line at drug stores, or young couples be harassed outside a coffee shop. I hate that I can't eat a meal a terrace without some drugged out beggar trying to hustle me for change. I don't care who or what does drugs. I don't care about the functional or dysfunctional drug users. It's mental gymnastics at this point. I just don't want to see them. Whatever you do in the privacy of your own home that's fine. But that's not happening. We just can't have nice things.
  - tfourb 3y ago
    What you are essentially saying is that the right of certain people to access public spaces should be curtailed because they annoy you. Begging is a right und German law and does not have to happen silently. If that annoys you, how about you contribute to a solution that leads to less people having to beg, instead of advocating for the (clearly illegal and amoral) "solution" of confining people "out of sight"?
PurpleRamen 3y ago
Those drugs are already banned. It doesn't prevent the abuse. The addicts will be there, if you see them or not. So the solution in Frankfurt is to connect with the addicts, and help them in some ways, to make it less bad for them, and thus in response make it less bad for society. Because Frankfurt was already worse in the past, far worse. And it became bad again in the last years because of the pandemia and a shift in politics, which should give an impression on how bad it will get without proper support.
- jterrys 3y ago
  >Those drugs are already banned. It doesn't prevent the abuse. In Singapore if they catch you with heroin, you hang. I think in Taiwan they give you 10 years for weed. I wasn't solicited for drugs. I felt safe at night. In both cases their metro was clean. It seems to work for them. At least to my apparent superficial standards. You either go full measure or decriminalize it. The West has never gone full measure. We are slowly decriminalizing it.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    You'll probably get solicited for drugs sometime in Beijing Sanlitun if you look like a foreigner. So Asia isn't completely clean, even if the penalties for drugs are high in China. Still feel safe at night, however.
  - PurpleRamen 3y ago
    > In Singapore if they catch you with heroin, you hang. That's not an option. Germany is pretty woke about human rights.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> U.S and Germany, and comparing with Asian countries like Singapore and Taiwan... I'd rather the streets be clean. Surely you must realise that US will not become clean like Singapore just by adopting it's drug policy? You must realise that other policies that keep singapore clean will have to be adopted too, like massive fines for littering, community, and among them an aggresive 'socialist' housing policy? "Remarkably, Singapore has achieved a home ownership rate of over 80 per cent among its citizens. This is through three policy pillars operating since the 1960s Housing for over 80 per cent of residents is the ubiquitous high-rise public housing blocks built by the Housing and Development Board (HDB)" https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20181025-the-cost-of-keeping-singapore-squeaky-clean https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20181025-the-cost-of-ke...

freedomben 3y ago

This is the fallacy that the majority of people suffer from: if I don't see it, it doesn't happen. There are tons of functional, contributing people using drugs, but you don't know about it. All you saw are the people who have hit rock bottom and developed serious issues with them, and you've assumed they must be the only ones using dreugs and that drugs inevitably lead to that. It's a common error, but a big one nonetheless that leads to wildly unscientific conclusions. To then make or support policy based on those conclusions is extremely irresponsible.

yadaeno 3y ago
So you’re saying it’s a fallacy because Singapore and Taiwan are filled with high functioning heroin users? Draw a line on a bellcurve, the people on the right can use drugs safely without destroying their lives the people on the left cannot. GP is saying that for hard drugs, that line is a little to far to the right to sustain a clean and safe society so we should ban them all together. That might not be a reasonable option for western countries but lets not act like acknowledging that is a fallacy.
- freedomben 3y ago
  > So you’re saying it’s a fallacy because Singapore and Taiwan are filled with high functioning heroin users? No, I'm not saying that at all. I have no idea the makeup of Singapore and Taiwan. I am saying that you can't take a heavily biased sample and make conclusions about the entire population. This is a well accepted reality in statistics. It's deeply unscientific and can lead to horrendously incorrect conclusions. Then making policies on those conclusions that can lead to death and/or imprisonment of people is at best grossly irresponsible.
jterrys 3y ago
>This is the fallacy that the majority of people suffer from: if I don't see it, it doesn't happen. My reply will be brutish. I know it happens. I just don't want to see it. I don't want to watch mothers with toddlers be solicited for change in the checkout line at drug stores, or young couples be harassed outside a coffee shop. I hate that I can't eat a meal a terrace without some drugged out beggar trying to hustle me for change. I don't care who or what does drugs. I don't care about the functional or dysfunctional drug users. It's mental gymnastics at this point. I just don't want to see them. Whatever you do in the privacy of your own home that's fine. But that's not happening. We just can't have nice things.
- tfourb 3y ago
  What you are essentially saying is that the right of certain people to access public spaces should be curtailed because they annoy you. Begging is a right und German law and does not have to happen silently. If that annoys you, how about you contribute to a solution that leads to less people having to beg, instead of advocating for the (clearly illegal and amoral) "solution" of confining people "out of sight"?

PurpleRamen 3y ago

Those drugs are already banned. It doesn't prevent the abuse. The addicts will be there, if you see them or not. So the solution in Frankfurt is to connect with the addicts, and help them in some ways, to make it less bad for them, and thus in response make it less bad for society. Because Frankfurt was already worse in the past, far worse. And it became bad again in the last years because of the pandemia and a shift in politics, which should give an impression on how bad it will get without proper support.

jterrys 3y ago
>Those drugs are already banned. It doesn't prevent the abuse. In Singapore if they catch you with heroin, you hang. I think in Taiwan they give you 10 years for weed. I wasn't solicited for drugs. I felt safe at night. In both cases their metro was clean. It seems to work for them. At least to my apparent superficial standards. You either go full measure or decriminalize it. The West has never gone full measure. We are slowly decriminalizing it.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  You'll probably get solicited for drugs sometime in Beijing Sanlitun if you look like a foreigner. So Asia isn't completely clean, even if the penalties for drugs are high in China. Still feel safe at night, however.
- PurpleRamen 3y ago
  > In Singapore if they catch you with heroin, you hang. That's not an option. Germany is pretty woke about human rights.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> U.S and Germany, and comparing with Asian countries like Singapore and Taiwan... I'd rather the streets be clean. Surely you must realise that US will not become clean like Singapore just by adopting it's drug policy? You must realise that other policies that keep singapore clean will have to be adopted too, like massive fines for littering, community, and among them an aggresive 'socialist' housing policy? "Remarkably, Singapore has achieved a home ownership rate of over 80 per cent among its citizens. This is through three policy pillars operating since the 1960s Housing for over 80 per cent of residents is the ubiquitous high-rise public housing blocks built by the Housing and Development Board (HDB)" https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20181025-the-cost-of-keeping-singapore-squeaky-clean https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20181025-the-cost-of-ke...