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SETI scientists to devise plan for lunar listening station
- londons_explore 3y agoThe more one looks for aliens, the less worthwhile it is to look for aliens. If nobody had ever thought to look before at the sky for any signs of aliens, then it would be worth a quick glance to see. But since people have been looking at the sky now for many hundreds of years, with increasingly advanced tech, and still found nothing, it might be worth scaling back the effort.
- swalsh 3y agoHave they found nothing? https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-retrieved-non-human-craft/ https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-re...
- 2023throwawayy 3y ago… Yes. They have found nothing.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y agoKean and Blumenthal have been pushing these stories for a half decade now. They are the same people behind the 2017 F-18 story.
- stevenhuang 3y agoIt's turning out these may be more than just stories. Whisteblowers just last week testified under oath to Congress and the Inspector General of recovered ET craft. So either they're lying and going straight to jail, or there's truth to these accounts. We can only wait and see.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y agoAs far as I'm aware Grusch makes no claims to having any sort of first hand account or evidence. Though it does seem to be acting like catnip for the conspiratorially minded in congress.
- stevenhuang 3y agoThat's right, Grusch has no first hand accounts. But apparently personnel from the crash retrieval teams have come forward and testified to congress. Crazy, I know. It's a developing situation; we need wait and see before jumping to conclusions. That said having discerningly followed this topic for years, I believe what we're seeing is a momentous shift in the status quo and that the revelations from these proceedings will be paradigm shifting.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago> But apparently personnel from the crash retrieval teams have come forward and testified to congress. Crazy, I know. Who? Do you have an article for this? Because all I see are claims that people say the retrieval accounting could be possibly credible, but absolutely no first hand accounts. > That said having discerningly followed this topic for years, I believe what we're seeing is a momentous shift in the status quo and that the revelations from these proceedings will be paradigm shifting. It's also possible that leadership is becoming less discerning and more than happy to follow whatever makes the biggest headlines.
- stevenhuang 3y agoIt's in the linked article https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-retrieved-non-human-craft/ https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-re... > Several current members of the recovery program spoke to the Inspector General’s office and corroborated the information Grusch had provided for the classified complaint. If we believe the claims, it's looking more the case that leadership is completely in the blind regarding these activities. These UAP programs have operated without congressional oversight, and so are illegal. Leadership is now forced to address these claims seriously, for the first time since the 70s.
- digbybk 3y agoLooking for aliens is worthwhile because discovering alien life would transform how we see the universe and ourselves, not because it’s easy. That’s like saying the more one looks for fundamental physics the less worthwhile it is. We would never have built a particle accelerator with that attitude. You can extend it to all of science. Why look for anything hard?
- Lolaccount 3y agoI've heard that line a hundred times. But would it? I value SETI and ideas behind it and even the line you just wrote. But would it? The whole thing will just descend into a twisted conspiracy pit of nonsense within 48 hours. _______ How long did governments know about it? Have aliens been interbreeding with humans all this time? Is Joe Biden a lizard crossbreed alien? When do we get to nuke them? ________ This is the level of humanity that we currently display, or which shouts the loudest, or which we click on and ... eventually, slowly, but surely, listen to... or, at least, take account of in our political decisions. I'm certain that any alien lifeforms out there are far more sensible and will just ... 'walk on by' ... as a human might in the presence of a tiny microbe resting on a discarded apple in the corner of a derelict building.
- digbybk 3y agoI think this comes down to how we're using the words "we". Galileo transformed how "we" see the world, but not a whole lot of people at the time appreciated the implications of what he was saying. I think we need to keep looking for ways to answer the big questions because it elevates us. But it's often unevenly distributed in space and time, unfortunately. Basically, I'm saying that the search for alien life is just science, and if you believe in curiosity-motivated science, there's no reason to single that out. Unless you're worried about alien malware, which isn't a crazy thing to be worried about https://youtu.be/st9EJg_t6yc https://youtu.be/st9EJg_t6yc
- Lolaccount 3y agoYou're right, of course. The video amused me. I got to thinking - what if the first communication was just spam!
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- mulcahey 3y agoI recommend the elegant book “5 Billion Tears of Solitude”
- ftxbro 3y agoif they are reading the news these seti scientists must be so excited about how the government got some aliens and their spaceships
- davisr 3y agoWhy would they be excited? That would certainly cut their funding. > UFOS: CHALLENGE TO SETI SPECIALISTS (Friedman, 2002) > Major news media and many members of the scientific community have taken strongly to the radio-telescope-based SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) program as espoused by its charismatic leaders, but not supported by any evidence whatsoever. In turn, perhaps understandably, they feel it necessary to attack the ideas of alien visitors (UFOs) as though they were based on tabloid nonsense instead of on far more evidence than has been provided for SETI. One might hope, vainly I am afraid, that they would be concerned with The Search for Extraterrestrial Visitors (SETV). I would hereby like to challenge the SETI specialists, members of the scientific community, and the media to recognize the overwhelming evidence and significant consequences of alien visits and to expose the serious deficiencies of the SETI-related claims. I have publicly and privately offered to debate any of them. No takers so far. https://web.archive.org/web/20191222220058/http://stantonfriedman.com/index.php?ptp=articles&fdt=2002.05.13 https://web.archive.org/web/20191222220058/http://stantonfri...
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- nashashmi 3y agoWhy is it so important for them to figure out whether or not there is (intelligent) life out there that we can detect with our instruments?
- nashashmi 3y agoFor those who are downvoting this, notice I said “detect with our instruments” Even if I believe there is life out there, and even if we have visual proof of it, SETI specializes in detection with certain instruments, not proving they exist. I like the plans of SETI, and the equipment they come up with, but to me that is like Alchemy.
- verandaguy 3y agoThere's a very strong argument to be made that making first contact with an intelligent extraterrestrial species would be the most significant single event in human history. I can't say I have high hopes given the odds of making first contact, but it'd still be a huge milestone for our civilization if we can survive it.
- kurthr 3y agoEven just knowing they are there/coming or might arrive in 1000y would have huge effects on human society. Not being alone as a species has fundamental existential meaning and religion. Would the effects be good? The truth can have bad effects, but so does not confronting reality.
- nradov 3y agoWould it really though? I would still have to attend that early meeting tomorrow. Still have to go grocery shopping. Still have to pay my mortgage. Finding signals from aliens on some distant planet would be interesting for one news cycle. Then everything would continue on as before.
- dvsfish 3y agoI actually believe it would - it would inspire generations to work towards something greater than even humanity. Whether that resulted in beauty or disaster is besides the point. It might bring some greater sense of unity amongst humans, and direct our efforts for millennia.
- TheBlight 3y agoWhile I don't think it's necessarily time to give up on classical SETI, it seems very unlikely we find contemporaneous civilizations interested in beaming radio back and forth. This idea seems more interesting to me: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1908.08543.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1908.08543.pdf Along with combing the surface of the moon looking for existing impacts of potentially artificial objects.
- godelski 3y agoI think the best way to look at it is that placing a structure on the moon is something that will be initially costly, but cause visitation. When then has the potential to bring down the cost as the process "scales" (transit) and then, slowly, Rome gets built. Not that I don't love SETI, but sometimes there's a bigger picture because of a larger interconnection. If there were a few simple moon projects, it could easily build momentum for more space missions in general. Just like a lot of satellites did, but going to the moon is a different ball game than orbit (even GEO).
- NegativeLatency 3y ago200 million is about what the Very Large Array would Cousy in todays dollars, granted it’s not apples to apples but still quite amazing to think about. As someone who hopes there’s other life out there we can communicate with this is exciting.
- fnord77 3y agostop wasting money on this. The Great Filter is real, yo
- bbor 3y agoSource: vibez
- miika 3y agoI doubt SETI could detect even our own signals, when it’s encrypted digital data. I mean it’s just noise like any background signal.. Then, we people are very soon capable of communicating using quantum entanglement, which means it’s beyond wireless and you simply couldn’t tap into it with some antenna. For these reasons I suspect that SETI is waste of money.
- bnralt 3y agoYeah, the SETI Institute's site says we wouldn't be able to pick up signals from an earth like civilization in the system closest to us[1]: > If an extraterrestrial civilization has a SETI project similar to our own, could they detect signals from Earth? > In general, no. Most earthly transmissions are too weak to be found by equipment similar to ours at the distance of even the nearest star. But there are some important exceptions. High-powered radars and the Arecibo broadcast of 1974 (which lasted for only three minutes) could be detected at distances of tens to hundreds of light-years with a setup similar to our best SETI experiments. It's not really a surprise why we aren't finding things. It's a surprise that we're still acting like this is a good way to look. [1] https://www.seti.org/faq#obs12 https://www.seti.org/faq#obs12
- andyjohnson0 3y ago> the SETI Institute's site says we wouldn't be able to pick up signals from an earth like civilization in the system closest to us[1] TO be clear, the signals it is referring to are those that would be similar the unintended leakage of normal broadcast and military radar systems used on earth. So detecting ETIs from their passive emissions is certainly unfeasible that the moment. Signals broadcast by a hypothetical extraterrestrial civilisation as part of an intentional seti signalling effort would (presumably) use much higher power, narrower bandwidth, and frequencies chosen to reduce attenuation by the interstellar medium. These would be detectable using our current technology, and is largely what seti is looking for.
- cgriswald 3y agoI don’t see that as being much of a problem. Although we would not be able to detect regular Earth signals, we are relatively near the point where we would be able to detect Earth, including its atmospheric composition. Given we’ve already sent the Arecibo message, we might be likely to send such a signal to Earth. If so, other beings may as well. I think the real problem is the timing. It seems unlikely that anyone will be looking at the same time anyone else is sending a message.
- impissedoff1 3y ago[flagged]
- p-e-w 3y agoWhile I do share a certain romantic admiration for the grandeur of SETI's goals, I have to agree with those who call this a waste of money and brainpower in our times. The most ludicrous AGI apocalypse scenarios seem orders of magnitude more likely than finding conclusive evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence. A second terrestrial intelligence is about to emerge, and the consequences of that might conceivably be far worse than a literal alien invasion. Whatever resources are available for speculative anticipation of encounters with non-human intelligences should surely be directed towards hypothetical AGIs, rather than towards hypothetical beings from Epsilon Eridani.
- Mistletoe 3y agoI see two potential AGI apocalypses described in scenarios like this. 1. Skynet type scenario where machines rule and somehow we can’t pull the plug on them. 2. Humans hoping to make money and gain power and weird positive feedback loops cause AI to goad humans into war with each other, causing massive world conflict, destroying the earth. I cannot for the life of me fathom number 1 ever happening. How many data centers or aircraft carriers or really anything electronic or mechanized continue working without massive human intervention to keep those power outlets or engines going? I can’t think of anything. Why do we keep fearing this? I don’t care how much the AI evolves and iterates in silicon, it cannot escape this law of our physical universe and need for a physical connection to the real world we live in. It needs an army of humans, the great generalists, supporting it, to even survive. Now if you fear #2, well that is more plausible and it seems we are living in it now.
- prai1SE 3y agoI think there is value in having this proposal written and published. Even if it does not get built anytime soon (say because today‘s society thinks this is a waste of money), having the idea discussed in public helps and might inform future decisions. For example, we still reread proposals like the Dyson sphere, space elevators, a next-gen LHC, etc. . None of this is either technologically feasible today nor realistically fundable, but it shows the ambition and might spark discussions.
- pavlov 3y ago
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- LatteLazy 3y agoI think the assumption that advanced civilisations emit radio waves has been pretty much falsified at this point. We have all but stopped emitting anything detectable less than 100 years after we started.
- jmyeet 3y agoSETI is not how we'll find alien spacefaring civilizations. Within 1000 years, barring some apocalypse, an incredibly conservative prediction is that we will be able to build permanent space orbitals. We already have sufficiently strong and readily available materials (ie stainless steel) to build O'Neil Cylinders at 2-4 miles in diameter and 10-20 miles in length that could house as many as a million people. These can be powered with solar collectors. Build enough of these (ie millions) and you have a Dyson Swarm. With our Sun that can give our civilization upwards of 10^26 Watts of power to use (compared to our current estimated 10^11 Watts). This is also known as a Kardashev-2 (or K2) civilization. There are a ton of advantages to this. While it may not be the route that every civilization goes, given it is relatively low tech and has massive advantages in living area and energy availability, it seems like this would happen at least some of the time. These things would stand out from a huge distance because the only way to dissipate heat for a space orbital is to radiate it away into space. That has a wavelength determined entirely by temperature, which for any reasonable termperature range is infrared. So you'd detect a Dyson Swarm from a huge distance away by its IR signature. A galaxy of these (a so-called K3 civilization) would be visible from millions of light years away. A single star would be detectable now from a smaller distance but still a far bigger distance than any form of radio communication as you'd find via SETI. The fact that we haven't seen any evidence of this thus far in our galaxy leads many (including me) to think the most likely scenario is we are the only potential spacefaring civilizatin in our galaxy. The JWST is actually a way better tool for finding spacefaring life than anything SETI has done or proposes.
- exitb 3y agoWhat would be the motivation to build those cylinders? Traditionally people ventured into new places in hope of getting return of the effort and cost of the journey. Here it seems like you need to invest a lot, just to survive in emptiness.
- jmyeet 3y agoThe amount of energy you would have access to is almost unimaginable. We can only speculate what you'd do with that but two leading ideas are: 1. It may well be the only feasible method of interstellar travel. Accelerating a spacecraft is a whole bunch of fuel you don't have to carry; and 2. Computing power. So what would motivate people? Living room. One estimate I've seen is the current population of Earth on a full Dyson Swarm would give each person the equivalent living space of the continent of Africa. Of course you'd probably have a ton more people. It's likely you'd have a quadrillion people (>10^15) with each person having significantly more room than they do on Earth.