3 ms·

A cruel experiment that will neither relieve suffering nor address its cause. America is insane.

BobbyJo 3y ago
When it comes to substance abuse, there is literally nothing a third party can legally do. Short of arresting you for committing a crime, or commiting you as a self harm risk (a worse experience than jail) your rights under the US constitution prevent you from being forced to do pretty much anything.
Jarwain 3y ago
Cruel yes. Better in the long run? Maybe. People need support. This support requires funding. This funding comes from taxes, which requires business operations and such. Business operations are impacted by perceptions of safety and cleanliness, which also requires funding and scales with the number of people who need support.
- techdmn 3y ago
  Your second paragraph makes sense, but only to the extent that one views people needing support as a local issue. This is one of the ways we (as a U.S. resident) avoid taking responsibility: This problem is some other locality's responsibility.
- michaelt 3y ago
  I'm no expert on US politics/taxes, but isn't the bay area already home to some of the richest companies on the planet? Mostly companies whose income comes from all over the globe, and hence is almost entirely independent of the state of San Francisco's streets? And people on HN make it sound like the Bay Area is full of workers making several hundred of thousand of dollars a year, buying houses worth several million dollars, so income tax and property tax revenue should be off the charts too. Isn't the bay area be absolutely swimming in tax revenue already?
  - fmajid 3y ago
    SF's problems do not stem from lack of money. The City's budget went from $6B in 2008 to $13B today. That's more than entire countries (SF would by #80 in the UN after Nigeria and before Sri Lanka). They could afford to buy every homeless man, woman and child (7,000 total) a $1M condo with just one year's worth of the tech windfall. By my calculations, the city bureaucracy captured at least 40% of that in salaries and benefits, and I'm sure the welfare-industrial complex took its cut as well, while failing the people it ostensibly serves. If SF raises additional taxes, the few companies left will simply decamp to other places in the Bay Area like San Jose. The crime and quality of life issues are already pushing them to do so. They only set up shop in SF after 2000 because that was the only way to attract talent from Berkeley or SF who were not willing to commute to the South Bay, but in the new job market environment that is no longer an issue.
briandear 3y ago
America is insane? You might want to look at what cities in Europe do for their honelesss. https://www.slowboring.com/p/they-have-homelessness-in-europe https://www.slowboring.com/p/they-have-homelessness-in-europ...
HDThoreaun 3y ago
Leaving addicts and the mentally ill to rot on the streets is cruel and insane.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
How is outlawing camping during the day in the city "cruel and insane"?
- courseofaction 3y ago
  They're not outlawing camping in a vacuum, they are outlawing an act of desperation which their own policies are driving people to. America is insane.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    > they are outlawing an act of desperation which their own policies are driving people to. America is insane. So you mean, they should be allowed to keep their stuff (e.g. lots of stolen bikes) strung out in the middle of a park during a day, and they shouldn't have to move into shelters because they can't deal with their drug habits? If this were Switzerland (or specifically, Lausanne where I used to live), the Swiss police would really not take any of that crud. They would apply lots of tough love, swiss style, before it got to that point. Portland is literally filled with bleeding heart liberals in comparison (and actually is, people are just losing patience).
    - courseofaction 3y ago
      Wow daddy I'm impressed, use your strength on me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_Unite... It's this. America does not invest in its social problems.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        It actually does, it just can't decide if it wants to be authoritarian or permissive in dealing with its social problems, so even though we throw a lot of money and resources at these problems, they aren't very effective. What's more is that every city/state/locality has its own strategy, and they are all different.

When it comes to substance abuse, there is literally nothing a third party can legally do. Short of arresting you for committing a crime, or commiting you as a self harm risk (a worse experience than jail) your rights under the US constitution prevent you from being forced to do pretty much anything.

Jarwain 3y ago

Cruel yes. Better in the long run? Maybe. People need support. This support requires funding. This funding comes from taxes, which requires business operations and such. Business operations are impacted by perceptions of safety and cleanliness, which also requires funding and scales with the number of people who need support.

techdmn 3y ago
Your second paragraph makes sense, but only to the extent that one views people needing support as a local issue. This is one of the ways we (as a U.S. resident) avoid taking responsibility: This problem is some other locality's responsibility.
michaelt 3y ago
I'm no expert on US politics/taxes, but isn't the bay area already home to some of the richest companies on the planet? Mostly companies whose income comes from all over the globe, and hence is almost entirely independent of the state of San Francisco's streets? And people on HN make it sound like the Bay Area is full of workers making several hundred of thousand of dollars a year, buying houses worth several million dollars, so income tax and property tax revenue should be off the charts too. Isn't the bay area be absolutely swimming in tax revenue already?
- fmajid 3y ago
  SF's problems do not stem from lack of money. The City's budget went from $6B in 2008 to $13B today. That's more than entire countries (SF would by #80 in the UN after Nigeria and before Sri Lanka). They could afford to buy every homeless man, woman and child (7,000 total) a $1M condo with just one year's worth of the tech windfall. By my calculations, the city bureaucracy captured at least 40% of that in salaries and benefits, and I'm sure the welfare-industrial complex took its cut as well, while failing the people it ostensibly serves. If SF raises additional taxes, the few companies left will simply decamp to other places in the Bay Area like San Jose. The crime and quality of life issues are already pushing them to do so. They only set up shop in SF after 2000 because that was the only way to attract talent from Berkeley or SF who were not willing to commute to the South Bay, but in the new job market environment that is no longer an issue.

briandear 3y ago

America is insane? You might want to look at what cities in Europe do for their honelesss. https://www.slowboring.com/p/they-have-homelessness-in-europe https://www.slowboring.com/p/they-have-homelessness-in-europ...

HDThoreaun 3y ago

Leaving addicts and the mentally ill to rot on the streets is cruel and insane.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

How is outlawing camping during the day in the city "cruel and insane"?

courseofaction 3y ago
They're not outlawing camping in a vacuum, they are outlawing an act of desperation which their own policies are driving people to. America is insane.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > they are outlawing an act of desperation which their own policies are driving people to. America is insane. So you mean, they should be allowed to keep their stuff (e.g. lots of stolen bikes) strung out in the middle of a park during a day, and they shouldn't have to move into shelters because they can't deal with their drug habits? If this were Switzerland (or specifically, Lausanne where I used to live), the Swiss police would really not take any of that crud. They would apply lots of tough love, swiss style, before it got to that point. Portland is literally filled with bleeding heart liberals in comparison (and actually is, people are just losing patience).
  - courseofaction 3y ago
    Wow daddy I'm impressed, use your strength on me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_Unite... It's this. America does not invest in its social problems.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      It actually does, it just can't decide if it wants to be authoritarian or permissive in dealing with its social problems, so even though we throw a lot of money and resources at these problems, they aren't very effective. What's more is that every city/state/locality has its own strategy, and they are all different.