3 ms·

It's only a feeling, and might be confirmation bias (I moved abroad as well) but it feels like more people I know are leaving the US entirely. Certainly more of

It's only a feeling, and might be confirmation bias (I moved abroad as well) but it feels like more people I know are leaving the US entirely. Certainly more of my peer group than my parents' generation.

dsq 3y ago
Does entirely mean: Renouncing US citizenship? ?Moving out of the US with children Buying a home and declaring ?residency outside the US These to me are what define leaving entirely. Taking a gap year, for example, does not count.
- CalRobert 3y ago
  Well I don't think you determine what "counts" but in my mind it means moving abroad indefinitely.
nradov 3y ago
The US still has a positive net migration rate with pretty much every other country, including all major EU member states.
- briandear 3y ago
  That’s going to be a lot poor people moving from poor countries. But to OP’s point, there are a lot of middle-upper class, especially remote workers that are looking to get the heck out of the US. I am one of them. When sex changes for children is a topic of national debate, or my kids are being taught that your skin color makes you racist — it’s time to go.
  - gigatexal 3y ago
    No joke much of the US business exceptionalism is from immigration. For whatever reason many a foreign national wants to go to the US to take part in that 50-cent dream of get[ting] rich or d[ying] trying.
- CalRobert 3y ago
  Absolutely, which is part of why I mention my peer group. But if you're a mid-30's programmer with a family (or planning to start one) the EU can be tempting, if you can work around the large salary gap.
  - gigatexal 3y ago
    A 150k EUR salary can be had easily in Europe but that’s true you’ll not find 500k to 1M salaries here like you will stateside.
    - CalRobert 3y ago
      To be fair a 150k EUR salary (about where I am as it turns out) can be had in Europe but I don't think it's done "easily" for most people, at least compared to major US cities. But I literally don't care. I already have a paid off house, and I just don't need anything. My big goal in life is to have a 3 bed flat or townhouse where my kids can run out the door and ride their bikes to their friends' houses (and school, and the cinema, etc.) and I'm not worried about them. I don't want a fancy car (or any car, actually), gadgets, etc. I kinda wanted to FIRE at one point but that was only because I hated what I was doing. Finding work from climatebase.org or similar helps a lot with that. I would LOVE to work for humankind.city, for instance.
      - gigatexal 3y ago
        I figured easily for the staff level and above engineer making 3-4x that amount and wanting to move to Europe. For the rest of us something close to 100k is easily doable.
gigatexal 3y ago
I agree. I miss a lot of home (family, taco bell, friends, some freedoms) but I really do enjoy the healthcare, the lack of anxiety from gun violence, the stable government, and the lack of stress. I am trying to get folks I know to move out of the US, too!
- CalRobert 3y ago
  Hah! Admittedly good taco shops and In-N-Out are something I miss about the bay, along with many other wonderful things. I wouldn't mind at least _some_ of that can-do spirit and willingness to take risks, either, cheesy as it sounds. I bring up US working holiday visa arrangements (with Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, and South Korea), the Dutch American Friendship Treaty (surprisingly straightforward way to live in the Netherlands if you can employ yourself), recent loosening of German immigration rules, and oddball options like the French Foreign Legion or living in Svalbard far too often in casual conversation.
  - gigatexal 3y ago
    I have had authentic Tacos and I do love them and real Mexican food ... but there's something visceral, nostalgic, about Taco Bell. It was the first meal I can remember we ever had growing up that wasn't cooked at home (we never ate out, we always had home cooked food and then one day mom was just tired and we hit up the local TacoBell and I was hooked ever since). And then the only happy memory with my Dad was at a Taco Bell with him throwing way too many hot sauce packets on the hard shelled tacos (he was East Indian so chewing on habeneros at the store and picking the hotter ones was a normal thing so...), shortly after this random experience, he passed away suddenly while on a business trip. Anyway, I miss that greasy, bastardization of the taco... Immigration and liberal laws unto it will save nations I think. Countries going forward will need skilled labor more than ever as birth rates fall. Germany has been good to me, Berlin especially, but if I were to do it all over again, I'd try my hardest to get placed at a company in Amsterdam. What an amazing place that place is.
    - CalRobert 3y ago

dsq 3y ago

Does entirely mean: Renouncing US citizenship? ?Moving out of the US with children Buying a home and declaring ?residency outside the US These to me are what define leaving entirely. Taking a gap year, for example, does not count.

CalRobert 3y ago
Well I don't think you determine what "counts" but in my mind it means moving abroad indefinitely.

nradov 3y ago

The US still has a positive net migration rate with pretty much every other country, including all major EU member states.

briandear 3y ago
That’s going to be a lot poor people moving from poor countries. But to OP’s point, there are a lot of middle-upper class, especially remote workers that are looking to get the heck out of the US. I am one of them. When sex changes for children is a topic of national debate, or my kids are being taught that your skin color makes you racist — it’s time to go.
- gigatexal 3y ago
  No joke much of the US business exceptionalism is from immigration. For whatever reason many a foreign national wants to go to the US to take part in that 50-cent dream of get[ting] rich or d[ying] trying.
CalRobert 3y ago
Absolutely, which is part of why I mention my peer group. But if you're a mid-30's programmer with a family (or planning to start one) the EU can be tempting, if you can work around the large salary gap.
- gigatexal 3y ago
  A 150k EUR salary can be had easily in Europe but that’s true you’ll not find 500k to 1M salaries here like you will stateside.
  - CalRobert 3y ago
    To be fair a 150k EUR salary (about where I am as it turns out) can be had in Europe but I don't think it's done "easily" for most people, at least compared to major US cities. But I literally don't care. I already have a paid off house, and I just don't need anything. My big goal in life is to have a 3 bed flat or townhouse where my kids can run out the door and ride their bikes to their friends' houses (and school, and the cinema, etc.) and I'm not worried about them. I don't want a fancy car (or any car, actually), gadgets, etc. I kinda wanted to FIRE at one point but that was only because I hated what I was doing. Finding work from climatebase.org or similar helps a lot with that. I would LOVE to work for humankind.city, for instance.
    - gigatexal 3y ago
      I figured easily for the staff level and above engineer making 3-4x that amount and wanting to move to Europe. For the rest of us something close to 100k is easily doable.

gigatexal 3y ago

I agree. I miss a lot of home (family, taco bell, friends, some freedoms) but I really do enjoy the healthcare, the lack of anxiety from gun violence, the stable government, and the lack of stress. I am trying to get folks I know to move out of the US, too!

CalRobert 3y ago
Hah! Admittedly good taco shops and In-N-Out are something I miss about the bay, along with many other wonderful things. I wouldn't mind at least _some_ of that can-do spirit and willingness to take risks, either, cheesy as it sounds. I bring up US working holiday visa arrangements (with Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, and South Korea), the Dutch American Friendship Treaty (surprisingly straightforward way to live in the Netherlands if you can employ yourself), recent loosening of German immigration rules, and oddball options like the French Foreign Legion or living in Svalbard far too often in casual conversation.
- gigatexal 3y ago
  I have had authentic Tacos and I do love them and real Mexican food ... but there's something visceral, nostalgic, about Taco Bell. It was the first meal I can remember we ever had growing up that wasn't cooked at home (we never ate out, we always had home cooked food and then one day mom was just tired and we hit up the local TacoBell and I was hooked ever since). And then the only happy memory with my Dad was at a Taco Bell with him throwing way too many hot sauce packets on the hard shelled tacos (he was East Indian so chewing on habeneros at the store and picking the hotter ones was a normal thing so...), shortly after this random experience, he passed away suddenly while on a business trip. Anyway, I miss that greasy, bastardization of the taco... Immigration and liberal laws unto it will save nations I think. Countries going forward will need skilled labor more than ever as birth rates fall. Germany has been good to me, Berlin especially, but if I were to do it all over again, I'd try my hardest to get placed at a company in Amsterdam. What an amazing place that place is.
  - CalRobert 3y ago