10 ms·

All the data is good, but the way it is framed is a bit misleading. First, lets get one thing straight: dysfunction in the dating world negatively affects both

• visihuge 3y ago
  Many of these kinds of articles are always seem to be slanted in how it negatively affects women. Women desiring more successful partners, yet men aren't keeping up. I'd be interested if there was any good article broaching that subject more, instead of remarkably pithy answers like "it's those damn video games."
  • monksy 3y ago
    People are afraid to be direct and call the article/researchers sexist in their framing of the situation.
    • Animats 3y ago
      This could be framed as female incels insisting they have a right to a man who will support them.
  • chad1n 3y ago
    I agree, I believe that this high difference between women and men in higher education comes from men being sufficient with a "physical" job that pays almost as a "mental" one. Women just can't these jobs and they have to choose between working at McDonald's or trying to find a job using a Bachelor's degree. Men have many more alternatives, hence the "unequal" pay.
    • autoexec 3y ago
      I've seen it argued that it's also the nature of the education system. That it isn't designed for boys, that men are increasingly absent from teaching, that boys aren't encouraged and supported to the extent that girls are, that the success of sports teams can be a larger concern than making sure the student athletes are getting same level/quality of education, etc. I suspect that there are a ton of factors long before you deal with the issues at the university level.
    • strikelaserclaw 3y ago
      I've also met many women with low abilities who will themselves to get degrees (barely) where as a man who feels he is not suited for higher education, usually chooses the trade routes. So even these two people are equal in ability, the woman would generally not go for the man who chose to drop out because "i am better educated." I've also noticed woman have a far better control of their impulses where as men would just give in (more emotionally intelligent on average).
  • michaelbrave 3y ago
    Honestly it would be hard to touch on without insulting large swaths of society. Just thinking about my own friend and family circle the way a college aged woman is treated is vastly different, even just by parents. For example my sister (22) still lives at home, drives the family car, stepdad pays for her fuel, mom pays for food, is on the family cell plan, has basicaly 0 expenses except wanting to eat out. My brothers and I were expected to leave nearly right away, were not still on cell plan, and never had access to any of those other percs. I wouldn't be shocked if this played a large role into the why women are accessing higher education more today, because they financially can, because of their support systems, which many men don't have. Juggling a job to survive and scrape by while also going to school is although maybe possible, absolutely miserable at the same time, I can't imagine anyone pulling it off without hitting some kind of burnout after a few years of it.
    • peteradio 3y ago
      Heh, is she the baby of the family? I am the middle brother and my baby brother certainly had extra perks.
      • farazzz 3y ago
        Hehe, I think many parents do tend to sweeten the deal for the youngest so they don’t have to deal with empty nest syndrome
    • apsurd 3y ago
      you make a good observation, but as the replies mention, it's likely a more nuanced reality than just gender. Id agree that at baseline a male gets certain crude roles thrust upon them, but i want to say it's not unreasonable to just not... accept them. yeah it may be uncomfortable, but really, like if your sister is cool with all these perks, i think a male is personally not gonna be cool with handouts due to his own machismo, it's not anyone else's machismo, it's the person's. i know this is all enculturation, but same for the girl, when it comes down to it, it's our choice. i say, as a man, be vulnerable, ask for help. all good.
    • lamp_book 3y ago
• chad1n 3y ago
  Men suffer from "their own success" and are probably more romantic than women are overall and expect their relationships to be like dreams, hence they really can't put too much in a relationship that might fail, considering that the "market" is huge and it's hard to trust most people. It was way easier before to get laid, wasn't it?
  • cudgy 3y ago
    Surely it’s easier to get laid now than before online dating became mainstream. Before online dating, relationships were formed mostly by proximity, convenience and timing. Now, there is a huge list of candidates to attempt contact, advertising themselves in apps and providing some details on what they want.
    • abracadaniel 3y ago
      Is it easier to get a job now that we have many systems for handling applicants? Because it seems like hiring and getting hired is harder, or at least takes many more applications than in the past. Maybe there’s something similar where we’re spending more time tweaking filters to get to a manageable pool, but then accidentally filter down to a group of similar, yet incompatible people. We’re probably not great at judging what we want and maybe more constraints actually force us to consider people we otherwise wouldn’t and discover what we didn’t know we wanted by introducing some randomness. Perhaps dating apps would be more effective if it initiated the matchups and neither side was flooded with a list of people to filter through.
      • cudgy 3y ago
        Yes, getting a job is easier too. More options, easier access, and easier application process.
    • Rury 3y ago
      You'd think so, but it's the opposite. Just look at making friendships, nothing makes you a friend better than proximity, convenience, and timing (childhood friends hello?). Facebook friends? Yeah, not so much...
• monksy 3y ago
  > he has no desire to become desirable? Funny thing about that, it's women (for hetros) that are the determination of what is 'desirable'. As a man, I agree with a lot of those who are discouraged with dating and running through the unwinnable rat race.
  • austhrow743 3y ago
    In a hetero relationship context it makes perfect sense to me that women would determine what is desirable in men. How else would it work?
    • antisthenes 3y ago
      Society also determines what is desirable in men and women. In fact historically it was much more strict in determining what is desirable. If most men had their way in what is truly "desirable", they would have mute sex dolls that cook their favorite meal every night. If most women had their way, they would probably have something equivalently grotesque to fit their fantasies.
      • austhrow743 3y ago
        That you can't get the ideal extreme of your wants doesn't mean you don't desire them currently.
      • monksy 3y ago
        > they would have mute sex dolls that cook their favorite meal every night. I can see how you could believe that under the current conditions and stereotypes that men are subjected to. I don't believe that would last for very long. Men do have needs of intimacy, companionship, and emotional support. We're socialized and punished for vocalizing, and we're manipulated from showing a need for it. > have something equivalently grotesque to fit their fantasies. I would argue, for most, we're already in that world. The amount of expectations that women have on men is excessive, and when we don't meet them... women get hostile. (Where are all the good men, shaming, etc). From what I've seen some of the "desirable traits include": "Is overly nice/giving, but not a pushover", "Is desirable to other women, but only will stay with me", "Well connected to his peers, but doesn't play video games or like sports", "Doesn't say or think 'misogynistic'/wrongthink things.. but isn't saying things to find favor with me"
• timeagain 3y ago
  > So framing it as "men floundering, women most affected" is disingenuous. My 2c as a gay man that has many women as friends. They aren’t looking for “status” they are looking for someone who is emotionally intelligent. And thinking that gaining status is how to gain women is pretty much the opposite of that. Patriarchy hurts both sexes. By thinking of status and power as avenues to sex you stunt your ability to connect with others. And it sets up a negative dynamic because if gaining power is the goal then having an egalitarian relationship with your lover is not possible. > Maybe men use porn and play videogames not because they'd rather have that than a real relationship, but because modern relationships don't offer much more than that. If you think that lowly of women, why would they spend any time with you at all?
  • scarmig 3y ago
    As a bi man, the dynamics of dating men and women are very different. It ranges from the very explicit (you must plan the date; you must pay for the date) to the comparatively subtle (you must be emotionally stoic and not show too much vulnerability; you must have a stable, well-paying job; you must be "confident"). These things aren't standards you would be subject to in a purely platonic relationship. It's not even so much those things making you "hot" but those being prerequisites to being considered a potential partner. Gay men are much less strict about demanding a performance of the male gender role (except for those elements of it relating to physique).
    • timeagain 3y ago
      That’s true I might be biased by hanging with women who hang with gay men. It is also true that women perpetuate these dumb stereotypes of masculinity as well. The kicker for me is how these dynamics ruin the ability for men and women to become friends. Like you say, these wouldn’t be issues in a platonic relationship. But this cloud of expectation looms over any straight-platonic friendship between men and women. How the relationship would have to change if it became romantic. Makes me glad I’m gay.
      • scarmig 3y ago
• hfhdjdks 3y ago
  I take it that your expectation is that a woman takes more care of the house?
  • friend_and_foe 3y ago
    Not really, my expectation is more general. I expect a give and a take, a natural process of finding roles, I expect a partner to do what it takes to keep a household going, you know, a partnership. I expect two people to find their strengths and act accordingly for the benefit of the family. What I think is too common is that any mention of housework has a stigma attached to it for women now and what you wind up with is a situation where men have to fit the gender role of being a successful breadwinner and still do their own laundry. This is not a give and take, and this is unappealing to most men. I personally don't care what the distribution of responsibilities is, so long as it's according to each person's strengths and is for the benefit of the household with no consideration of external social expectation. I happen to have a relationship like this, and I still do laundry when I need to. It's great.
    • UncleMeat 3y ago
      > What I think is too common is that any mention of housework has a stigma attached to it for women now and what you wind up with is a situation where men have to fit the gender role of being a successful breadwinner and still do their own laundry. Yet, when we actually measure things and include both professional work and home labor, women perform more labor than men in relationships.
      • cudgy 3y ago
        How was this labor measured? What about the non-labor portions of life like financial planning and purchasing decisions which take time as well?
      • peteradio 3y ago
        You didn't measure OPs relationship.
• dahwolf 3y ago
  You're right, it's a play on the meme: "man dead, woman most affected". Popular culture has become structurally anti-male. The ease at which we're described as simplistic, violent, sexual addicts doesn't seem to surprise anyone anymore. This article almost makes a humanitarian problem out of a luxury problem: highly educated women unable to find somebody even richer than them.
  • antisthenes 3y ago
    Also women with impossible standards (e.g. 6'+, $200k+/yearly, loves dogs, wants (or doesn't) kids, is single, from a good family, won't cheat, owns his own house, blue eyes, etc.) refusing to lower them in search of a partner well into their 30s, then wondering "where all the good men are".
    • ArcticLandfall 3y ago
      Bo Burnham's "Lower your expectations" is a hilarious comedy song covering this exact point. For both men and women.
      • steine65 3y ago
        It was good, thanks! https://youtu.be/llGvsgN17CQ https://youtu.be/llGvsgN17CQ
    • apsurd 3y ago
      all 4 billion women want that laundry list of qualities? that's silly to say isn't it, of course you didn't mean literally all women, but that's why i'm commenting - it's crazy to me how we choose to play other people's games. find other circles. lest you're attracted to who you're attracted... but then umm... so women shouldn't be?
    • LorenPechtel 3y ago
      Fundamentally, it's that women typically want a partner that's above them--but with society being basically equal now there is a dearth of such men. It's going to take a while to adjust to having to settle for someone who is simply your equal.
• chrisco255 3y ago
  There's also no fault attributed to modern university culture. Is there something about the way they teach that alienates men? Perhaps it's just a reflection of the job market and the fact that a university education doesn't buy much these days.
• lo_zamoyski 3y ago
  [flagged]
  • dahwolf 3y ago
    Well written, and agreed. What I find in particularly striking is how dating/marriage in both articles and comments is described in such mechanical terms. As a market. You being the consumer matching specs against supply. The absolute most important thing, actual love for somebody, seems an outdated concept. It's utility now. What can you do FOR ME, the obvious center of the universe? Some seem angry with this "product" marriage. It doesn't seem to do exactly what they want, kind of like a bad product to be returned. Hyper-individualist consumerist society.
    • midoridensha 3y ago
      Actual love for somebody was never an important part of marriages until recent years. In the good ol' days, parents decided who their kids would marry, and money and power were the important things to consider.
  • joaonmatos 3y ago
    You make a very wide set of assumptions about some kind of metaphysical complementarity inside a couple that erases homosexuality and presupposes some naturally ordained monogamy. I am sorry, but unless you substantiate it in anthropological terms, it is utterly unfalsifiable and the argument should be thrown out in its entirety. The lived experiences of many queer and polyamorous people, plus the evidence of "deviant" behaviours in many animal species and historical and present societies contradicts your prescriptions.
    • midoridensha 3y ago
      There's nothing natural about monogamy. Humans only practiced it after agriculture became widespread and the idea of land ownership became important. In tribal hunter-gatherer societies, children were raised by the tribe and not just their parents, and who the father was wasn't considered important.
• duxup 3y ago
  > come on. This has got to be the most surface level trope quality take I've seen Is it a trope? The article goes on to explain that they found men less willing to exchange leisure time for other activities. It’s not just a one off line with no explanation.
• midoridensha 3y ago
  >Maybe men use porn and play videogames not because they'd rather have that than a real relationship, but because modern relationships don't offer much more than that. When exactly have relations ever offered much more than that, realistically? Relationships have always (since love marriages became common at least, which is actually relatively recent, historically) offered some rosy vision of love and affection and family and all that, but in reality, only a minority of marriages actually succeeded in having a happy couple without a lot of dysfunction. Unhappy couples were normal in days gone by. The divorce rate is only high because it's now acceptable to divorce, so unhappy people aren't staying in bad marriages any more. And lately, the divorce rate is falling because people simply aren't getting married as much, and more people are instead avoiding getting into a bad marriage in the first place, unlike their parents and grandparents. If two people can find true long-term love and affection in a relationship, that's really great. But let's stop pretending that this was ever the norm. It wasn't.
  • mensetmanusman 3y ago
    This is true for some, but probably not the majority, as women had much higher reported life satisfaction and happiness a century ago.
• vpastore 3y ago
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