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Conversations about high income as a factor in attracting women often seem to neglect to mention that it's not enough to have a high income if you don't use it

Conversations about high income as a factor in attracting women often seem to neglect to mention that it's not enough to have a high income if you don't use it to signal wealth or to provide luxury experiences to women. Telling women you want to put your high income to work in enabling you to retire early but live a modest life and use that freedom to pursue creative pursuits doesn't have the same effect as taking them to the luxury apartment you rent or inviting them to join you on a romantic, paid for, tropical getaway.

sho_hn 3y ago
This doesn't match my experience at all. In my experience, in most adult heterosexual long-term relationships it's usually the female partner who is insisting on long-term planning, financial planning, avoiding frivolous purchases, etc. and are happy if men don't start conflicts over this. Your exaggerated example basically screams "husband material".
- scarmig 3y ago
  Like most traits, I think men have a higher variance in focus on long-term planning than women do. Men are disproportionately both people who don't plan for the next paycheck and FIRE-enthusiasts. If you look at FIRE-oriented online groups, men significantly outnumber women. I think that's what the parent is referring to. And there are fewer women (relative to men) who are willing to take a significant drop in consumption in order to e.g. max a mega Roth backdoor. So a man who saves 20% of his take home income is husband material. A man who saves 80% of his take home income is a weirdo man child who needs to grow up and act like a "normal" person. Every female partner I've had (except my current one) has pushed me to scale up our consumption and save less.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    Women who do this have told me it can sometimes be about 'trying to live life before it is too late'.
    - scarmig 3y ago
      Sure. But I'd argue that's an overly narrow view of trying to live life: living life is about being present in shared experiences with your friends and loved ones, not status-focused consumption. Otherwise non-rich people would be doomed to misery, which isn't the case.
      - worrycue 3y ago
        Life is also about experiencing things (presumably as much things as possible) ... which cost money unfortunately. So it's not necessarily about status.
- dahwolf 3y ago
  Women are the largest spenders by far, the ultimate consumers.
- rngname22 3y ago
  Hmm, I live in NYC and am early 30s but can only speak to my experiences here, I haven't found that earning a tech salary was impressive to anyone but I can say there are certainly a lot of women who earn high salaries who expect men they date to also spend as much as them on frequent international travel, eating out for $30-50 a head several times a week, expect to live in luxury apartments in Manhattan, etc. Whereas if I wasn't willing to do that and put my money into the bank and just live in Brooklyn and don't travel super often, my high income holds no appeal. Note that I do not think either high income or high spending are requisites to date successfully as a straight guy in NYC though. Just noting my observations on how those two factors do play in.
HDThoreaun 3y ago
Not my experience. Maybe you're just talking to the wrong people? I find it easy enough to find people who aren't interested in materialism/rat race culture but are interested in ambitious, educated people.
- rngname22 3y ago
  My comment was poorly written, I don't mean to imply those things are required to date successfully or everyone cares about them, just that those who I've met who did seem to be attracted to wealth weren't attracted to wealth just the spending of wealth on status, signaling, or giving them experiences.
ctvo 3y ago
I can only assume, because it was unstated, and I didn't dive into the citations, but it looked like successful, educated women's preferences orbited around stability, and long term potential, rather than access to luxurious things or free trips.
Abekkus 3y ago
I would think a high maintenance partner would be a turn-off for anyone chasing FIRE, anyways?
Galaxeblaffer 3y ago
Depends on the woman and MANY would be attracted to the former. I'm pretty sure most would be better off with the kind of woman who is attracted to the former and that you should stay way clear women who values the latter.
drooby 3y ago
Ding ding ding…. It’s not about education… or income, it’s about STATUS.
- ctvo 3y ago
  Maybe? I know a lot of highly educated, successful women who wouldn't date Kevin Durant, for example. The idea of a rich man child trolling on burner accounts regardless of their high profile doesn't exactly drive them crazy. Replace Kevin Durant with Elon Musk if you're not a sports fan.
  - Dudester230602 3y ago
    Well, perhaps those celebs want "young sexy and easy-going" and not "highly educated, successful"? So it's a win-win?
  - drooby 3y ago
    Status is subjective depending on your social circles.
    - UncleMeat 3y ago
      If "high status" just means "people I like" then it loses all meaning and becomes a tautology. People prefer to date people that have attributes they find attractive. Those attributes vary. News at 11.
  - yamazakiwi 3y ago
    Bad examples, these 2 have fame in addition to status, which changes the game.
majormajor 3y ago
Are you actually offering people romantic paid for tropical getaways early on in dating to try to attract them? And does it work? Cause that sounds more like some kind of old Hollywood romcom cliche than something a lot of women really want to have thrown at them to 'win them' in the past decade. But hey, I haven't tried it!
- talldatethrow 3y ago
  At the height of tinder, I worked in a sales office. When we wanted a bit of a laugh, we'd troll women by asking if they would go to whatever fancy spot with us, if we paid and gave various amounts of cash as spending money. That was our opener. You'd be shocked at the success rate. Some of the more innocent coworkers thought the girls were trolling us back. So we'd ask for phone numbers, and call them on speaker phone and troll more on the phone. At that point you can't deny she was serious, no girl gives away their phone number under that scenario unless she's serious. As days went on we'd reduce the cash, and still many would agree. We eventually tried just offering cash and still some would agree, but eventually our account got flagged and banned.
  - lern_too_spel 3y ago
    Many women on Twitter are looking for casual relationships. News at 11. It's not different with men. If you're looking for a long term relationship, you have to filter out the casuals. The article says that surveys show more women than men are looking for long term relationships, so if that's what you're looking for, you shouldn't have trouble finding it unless your standards are higher than what you can get vs. competitors in the dating market. Being a misogynist will typically count against you, just as being a misandrist would count against women.
    - talldatethrow 3y ago
      News flash, most people I know were surprised to find out a woman will accept a free trip in exchange for sex with someone they haven't met. The only saving grace of that tinder experiment is that obviously the match meets a looks threshold since she swiped right on him. Id still basically call it prostitution and the acceptance rate was like 30% flat out, and another 30% cautious but could have been talked into it. Almost every woman I know under 35 has tried online dating. So yes I think it's surprising that almost half of women will agree to fly away with a stranger and have sex with them as long as they don't have to pay.
tennisflyi 3y ago
Absolutely. You have to flex or be willing to “spoil” in some manner/degree. Edit: Or, most great products still need to advertise.
breischl 3y ago
You attract what you advertise for. If you're advertising flashy, high-spending lifestyle, that's who you'll attract. But the women who are looking for long-term stability will stay away. And vice versa. Of course, if you want the not-high-spending women, you need to have something other than money and flashy lifestyle to offer. I think some guys get hung up there.
- scarmig 3y ago
  It's interesting that future security, free time to spend with your partner and do housework, and hobbies don't count as something to offer (at least relative to a flashy lifestyle). But, yes, a guy needs to find an effective angle that's in demand on the relationship market.
  - dingnuts 3y ago
    Maybe y'all just need to appreciate the value of working class women? I married a child of immigrants who is thrifty, values experiences over things, works hard, and appreciates that we want to live modestly so we can be free to retire as soon as possible! Together seven years, married for three. Maybe when I was dating I was passed over by materialistic women because I drove an old car and don't wear fancy clothes, but I see that as an absolute win! She teased me a little at first about how she "thought I was poor" because she didn't know how much an SWE makes and I was raised to find conspicuous consumption gauche. I just feel comfort knowing she chose me for me, not for my money. But I'm extremely lucky, and blessed. Maybe I'm an absolute outlier. There are no rules in the game of love
    - scarmig 3y ago
      There's lots of luck involved, which is always missing from these conversations. I've taken a similar route to you, and it's working out spectacularly, but, damn, it took a long while.
      - revelio 3y ago
        Same here. Wife is amazing: razor sharp, smart, beautiful, hard worker, happy to cook and help out around the home (we divide the tasks). Self employed, working class. Not particularly ideological, if anything she's conservative in the way self employed non-office workers often are (understands the value of money and stuff). She also teased me because when we first met she thought maybe I was poor (don't own a car and am happy to stay in cheap hotels when travelling for work), she also had no idea what high end SWE salaries could be. Same for her friends who were a bit suspicious at first that maybe I was borrowing money or something to buy her/us nice things. The wider world still hasn't really understood how well programmers can do, it seems. I guess because yeah there's no culture of flashing it around like in some other job sectors. They all expect bankers to be rich. And yeah, damn it took a while here too! Many years of searching to find her and in the end I got lucky.
hammock 3y ago
> it's not enough to have a high income if you don't use it to signal wealth or to provide luxury experiences to women Put another way, women aren’t attracted by men who earn a lot, but by men who spend a lot
- TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
  It's not hard to find "Why is my boyfriend/husband so cheap?" as a recurring question in advice columns. There's definitely a sense among many women that men should be demonstrably spendy - even flamboyant. Presumably because it confers competitive status. I used to have a friend who used to do factory work. She said that whenever any of the women had a new boyfriend one of the first questions was always "What kind of car does he drive?" Likewise many dating profiles say "I want a man who will spoil me." Of course it's not all women, but it's certainly a significant number.
  - monksy 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - imtringued 3y ago
      Or "Give me love and money"
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    There is no way I would ever want to date those women. Come on guys, there are a lot of fish in the sea! Find someone who shares your values.
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    >Likewise many dating profiles say "I want a man who will spoil me." "Looking for a man who is $trait, $trait, and generous."
    - asjfka 3y ago
grepLeigh 3y ago
I'm not trying to poke the bear by saying this, but I wonder if you'd still believe this after speaking to 100 women from different cities, backgrounds, and walks of life. Women aren't a monoculture.
sjducb 3y ago
Buy some rental properties. They’re a great investment and as good a status signal as a car.

sho_hn 3y ago

This doesn't match my experience at all. In my experience, in most adult heterosexual long-term relationships it's usually the female partner who is insisting on long-term planning, financial planning, avoiding frivolous purchases, etc. and are happy if men don't start conflicts over this. Your exaggerated example basically screams "husband material".

scarmig 3y ago
Like most traits, I think men have a higher variance in focus on long-term planning than women do. Men are disproportionately both people who don't plan for the next paycheck and FIRE-enthusiasts. If you look at FIRE-oriented online groups, men significantly outnumber women. I think that's what the parent is referring to. And there are fewer women (relative to men) who are willing to take a significant drop in consumption in order to e.g. max a mega Roth backdoor. So a man who saves 20% of his take home income is husband material. A man who saves 80% of his take home income is a weirdo man child who needs to grow up and act like a "normal" person. Every female partner I've had (except my current one) has pushed me to scale up our consumption and save less.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Women who do this have told me it can sometimes be about 'trying to live life before it is too late'.
  - scarmig 3y ago
    Sure. But I'd argue that's an overly narrow view of trying to live life: living life is about being present in shared experiences with your friends and loved ones, not status-focused consumption. Otherwise non-rich people would be doomed to misery, which isn't the case.
    - worrycue 3y ago
      Life is also about experiencing things (presumably as much things as possible) ... which cost money unfortunately. So it's not necessarily about status.
dahwolf 3y ago
Women are the largest spenders by far, the ultimate consumers.
rngname22 3y ago
Hmm, I live in NYC and am early 30s but can only speak to my experiences here, I haven't found that earning a tech salary was impressive to anyone but I can say there are certainly a lot of women who earn high salaries who expect men they date to also spend as much as them on frequent international travel, eating out for $30-50 a head several times a week, expect to live in luxury apartments in Manhattan, etc. Whereas if I wasn't willing to do that and put my money into the bank and just live in Brooklyn and don't travel super often, my high income holds no appeal. Note that I do not think either high income or high spending are requisites to date successfully as a straight guy in NYC though. Just noting my observations on how those two factors do play in.

HDThoreaun 3y ago

Not my experience. Maybe you're just talking to the wrong people? I find it easy enough to find people who aren't interested in materialism/rat race culture but are interested in ambitious, educated people.

rngname22 3y ago
My comment was poorly written, I don't mean to imply those things are required to date successfully or everyone cares about them, just that those who I've met who did seem to be attracted to wealth weren't attracted to wealth just the spending of wealth on status, signaling, or giving them experiences.

ctvo 3y ago

I can only assume, because it was unstated, and I didn't dive into the citations, but it looked like successful, educated women's preferences orbited around stability, and long term potential, rather than access to luxurious things or free trips.

Abekkus 3y ago

I would think a high maintenance partner would be a turn-off for anyone chasing FIRE, anyways?

Galaxeblaffer 3y ago

Depends on the woman and MANY would be attracted to the former. I'm pretty sure most would be better off with the kind of woman who is attracted to the former and that you should stay way clear women who values the latter.

drooby 3y ago

Ding ding ding…. It’s not about education… or income, it’s about STATUS.

ctvo 3y ago
Maybe? I know a lot of highly educated, successful women who wouldn't date Kevin Durant, for example. The idea of a rich man child trolling on burner accounts regardless of their high profile doesn't exactly drive them crazy. Replace Kevin Durant with Elon Musk if you're not a sports fan.
- Dudester230602 3y ago
  Well, perhaps those celebs want "young sexy and easy-going" and not "highly educated, successful"? So it's a win-win?
- drooby 3y ago
  Status is subjective depending on your social circles.
  - UncleMeat 3y ago
    If "high status" just means "people I like" then it loses all meaning and becomes a tautology. People prefer to date people that have attributes they find attractive. Those attributes vary. News at 11.
- yamazakiwi 3y ago
  Bad examples, these 2 have fame in addition to status, which changes the game.

majormajor 3y ago

Are you actually offering people romantic paid for tropical getaways early on in dating to try to attract them? And does it work? Cause that sounds more like some kind of old Hollywood romcom cliche than something a lot of women really want to have thrown at them to 'win them' in the past decade. But hey, I haven't tried it!

talldatethrow 3y ago
At the height of tinder, I worked in a sales office. When we wanted a bit of a laugh, we'd troll women by asking if they would go to whatever fancy spot with us, if we paid and gave various amounts of cash as spending money. That was our opener. You'd be shocked at the success rate. Some of the more innocent coworkers thought the girls were trolling us back. So we'd ask for phone numbers, and call them on speaker phone and troll more on the phone. At that point you can't deny she was serious, no girl gives away their phone number under that scenario unless she's serious. As days went on we'd reduce the cash, and still many would agree. We eventually tried just offering cash and still some would agree, but eventually our account got flagged and banned.
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  Many women on Twitter are looking for casual relationships. News at 11. It's not different with men. If you're looking for a long term relationship, you have to filter out the casuals. The article says that surveys show more women than men are looking for long term relationships, so if that's what you're looking for, you shouldn't have trouble finding it unless your standards are higher than what you can get vs. competitors in the dating market. Being a misogynist will typically count against you, just as being a misandrist would count against women.
  - talldatethrow 3y ago
    News flash, most people I know were surprised to find out a woman will accept a free trip in exchange for sex with someone they haven't met. The only saving grace of that tinder experiment is that obviously the match meets a looks threshold since she swiped right on him. Id still basically call it prostitution and the acceptance rate was like 30% flat out, and another 30% cautious but could have been talked into it. Almost every woman I know under 35 has tried online dating. So yes I think it's surprising that almost half of women will agree to fly away with a stranger and have sex with them as long as they don't have to pay.

tennisflyi 3y ago

Absolutely. You have to flex or be willing to “spoil” in some manner/degree. Edit: Or, most great products still need to advertise.

breischl 3y ago

You attract what you advertise for. If you're advertising flashy, high-spending lifestyle, that's who you'll attract. But the women who are looking for long-term stability will stay away. And vice versa. Of course, if you want the not-high-spending women, you need to have something other than money and flashy lifestyle to offer. I think some guys get hung up there.

scarmig 3y ago
It's interesting that future security, free time to spend with your partner and do housework, and hobbies don't count as something to offer (at least relative to a flashy lifestyle). But, yes, a guy needs to find an effective angle that's in demand on the relationship market.
- dingnuts 3y ago
  Maybe y'all just need to appreciate the value of working class women? I married a child of immigrants who is thrifty, values experiences over things, works hard, and appreciates that we want to live modestly so we can be free to retire as soon as possible! Together seven years, married for three. Maybe when I was dating I was passed over by materialistic women because I drove an old car and don't wear fancy clothes, but I see that as an absolute win! She teased me a little at first about how she "thought I was poor" because she didn't know how much an SWE makes and I was raised to find conspicuous consumption gauche. I just feel comfort knowing she chose me for me, not for my money. But I'm extremely lucky, and blessed. Maybe I'm an absolute outlier. There are no rules in the game of love
  - scarmig 3y ago
    There's lots of luck involved, which is always missing from these conversations. I've taken a similar route to you, and it's working out spectacularly, but, damn, it took a long while.
    - revelio 3y ago
      Same here. Wife is amazing: razor sharp, smart, beautiful, hard worker, happy to cook and help out around the home (we divide the tasks). Self employed, working class. Not particularly ideological, if anything she's conservative in the way self employed non-office workers often are (understands the value of money and stuff). She also teased me because when we first met she thought maybe I was poor (don't own a car and am happy to stay in cheap hotels when travelling for work), she also had no idea what high end SWE salaries could be. Same for her friends who were a bit suspicious at first that maybe I was borrowing money or something to buy her/us nice things. The wider world still hasn't really understood how well programmers can do, it seems. I guess because yeah there's no culture of flashing it around like in some other job sectors. They all expect bankers to be rich. And yeah, damn it took a while here too! Many years of searching to find her and in the end I got lucky.

hammock 3y ago

> it's not enough to have a high income if you don't use it to signal wealth or to provide luxury experiences to women Put another way, women aren’t attracted by men who earn a lot, but by men who spend a lot

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
It's not hard to find "Why is my boyfriend/husband so cheap?" as a recurring question in advice columns. There's definitely a sense among many women that men should be demonstrably spendy - even flamboyant. Presumably because it confers competitive status. I used to have a friend who used to do factory work. She said that whenever any of the women had a new boyfriend one of the first questions was always "What kind of car does he drive?" Likewise many dating profiles say "I want a man who will spoil me." Of course it's not all women, but it's certainly a significant number.
- monksy 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - imtringued 3y ago
    Or "Give me love and money"
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  There is no way I would ever want to date those women. Come on guys, there are a lot of fish in the sea! Find someone who shares your values.
- midoridensha 3y ago
  >Likewise many dating profiles say "I want a man who will spoil me." "Looking for a man who is $trait, $trait, and generous."
  - asjfka 3y ago

grepLeigh 3y ago

I'm not trying to poke the bear by saying this, but I wonder if you'd still believe this after speaking to 100 women from different cities, backgrounds, and walks of life. Women aren't a monoculture.

sjducb 3y ago

Buy some rental properties. They’re a great investment and as good a status signal as a car.