5 ms·

Granted, in a way, I always have a hard time seeing "Westfield Mall" and dense/urban city centers as being compatible... All of Rick Caruso's malls in LA are,

by caycep 3y ago

Granted, in a way, I always have a hard time seeing "Westfield Mall" and dense/urban city centers as being compatible... All of Rick Caruso's malls in LA are, to be sure, probably profitable but terrible in terms of urban planning

waihtis 3y ago
you obviously haven't been to London then. The city has two gigantic Westfield malls which are completely packed day in, day out.
- matt-attack 3y ago
  Los Angeles is the same. The Westfield in Century City has to be a flagship location and is constantly mobbed.
aworks 3y ago
I live in Menlo Park. We frequently go to SF for cultural/historical/nature reasons. But to go shopping, it's far easier to drive and park at Stanford Shopping Center in Palo Alto or Santana Row in San Jose. I've stopped in at Westfield before but it was never a destination and I don't remember ever buying anything there.
xeromal 3y ago
How are malls against urban planning? Seems like kind of the opposite no? All the stores you need to visit in one place. As long as they're close to where you live, seems like a win win to me.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  It's a win if you want to dedicate 50% of your city to roads and parking like LA does - a loss otherwise. YMMV
  - CydeWeys 3y ago
    Many urban malls have no parking whatsoever. You get there by transit or walking. I think you're mistaking "mall" for "strip mall".
    - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
      I think you're mistaking "urban mall" for "mall". At least in the US, the vast majority of "malls" include a massive belt of road around them for all the cars to get in & out, and a massive amount of parking, making walking and biking there or even transiting there unrealistic. Sure, you could have an "urban mall" with no parking, and that would be nice & pedestrian. But that's not the Westfield Malls in LA. Though, I'd imagine this would be illegal almost everywhere in the US due to parking minimums.
      - estebank 3y ago
        > Sure, you could have an "urban mall" with no parking, and that would be nice & pedestrian. But that's not the Westfield Malls in LA. But it is what Westfield SF is. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Westfield+San+Francisco+Centre/@37.7841178,-122.408966,17z/data=!3m2!4b1!5s0x808580867221f5e3:0xe8c76fea3a7bfc5e!4m6!3m5!1s0x80858085de1e33eb:0x1a31405067f79d69!8m2!3d37.7841178!4d-122.4063857!16zL20vMGJ6Ymx3?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/place/Westfield+San+Francisco+Ce...
      - CydeWeys 3y ago
        Why are you talking about suburban malls in LA? That's not what this discussion is about.
        onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
        > All of Rick Caruso's malls in LA are, to be sure, probably profitable but terrible in terms of urban planning. That's the comment I was responding to.
  - ribosometronome 3y ago
- caycep 3y ago
  It consumes large amounts of land into this one monolithic planned area beholden to one property owner, and yes, all issues w/ parking, etc. I would rather have a vibrant network of street-level properties w/ a healthy ecosystem of individual property owners surrounding a mass transit hub (i.e. LA metro stations if the metro can ever be developed to be useful...) The Caruso malls are imposing, Mordor like fortresses that gives the middle finger to the communities around it. Once inside, people with money can enjoy whatever corporate chain stores that can afford Caruso's rent and the property manager's whims.
  - xeromal 3y ago
    My single argument is that malls can fit inside an urban environment. None of your points really matter for that reason.
    - caycep 3y ago
      considering the Grove and the Americana/Galleria wipe out 15-17 acres each of potential high density mixed use residential/commercial space in the heart of LA, all in the name of luxury shopping/parking, I would say they do.
      - xeromal 3y ago
        I'm saying it's possible. I didn't say the Grove/Americana are shining examples.
CydeWeys 3y ago
Malls in dense cities are great, actually. Asia is packed full of them and the malls are packed full of people.
- brabel 3y ago
  I was at this mall a few years ago, on my first time in SF. I was really disappointed. I was expecting something grandiose, like you'll see in China, Singapore, Qatar... but this mall was basically like what you'd see in a slightly decadent, midsize city somewhere very unremarkable, i.e. not what I expected in a city surrounded by the headquarters of some of the most valuable companies in the world which pay ridiculously high salaries to thousands of people each.
  - CydeWeys 3y ago
    Hudson Yards in NYC is nicer, but still nothing I've seen in the US tops the best urban malls I've seen in Asia. They're truly on another level.
- CalRobert 3y ago
  Utrecht, darling of urbanists, has one right outside the steps of Utrecht Centraal train station too for that matter.
omginternets 3y ago
London has a mall (also called Westfield, incidentally) that is a perfect counter-example. The problem in SF isn’t the mall, it’s the laissez-faire approach to crime and public order.

by caycep 3y ago

waihtis 3y ago

you obviously haven't been to London then. The city has two gigantic Westfield malls which are completely packed day in, day out.

matt-attack 3y ago
Los Angeles is the same. The Westfield in Century City has to be a flagship location and is constantly mobbed.

aworks 3y ago

I live in Menlo Park. We frequently go to SF for cultural/historical/nature reasons. But to go shopping, it's far easier to drive and park at Stanford Shopping Center in Palo Alto or Santana Row in San Jose. I've stopped in at Westfield before but it was never a destination and I don't remember ever buying anything there.

xeromal 3y ago

How are malls against urban planning? Seems like kind of the opposite no? All the stores you need to visit in one place. As long as they're close to where you live, seems like a win win to me.

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
It's a win if you want to dedicate 50% of your city to roads and parking like LA does - a loss otherwise. YMMV
- CydeWeys 3y ago
  Many urban malls have no parking whatsoever. You get there by transit or walking. I think you're mistaking "mall" for "strip mall".
  - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
    I think you're mistaking "urban mall" for "mall". At least in the US, the vast majority of "malls" include a massive belt of road around them for all the cars to get in & out, and a massive amount of parking, making walking and biking there or even transiting there unrealistic. Sure, you could have an "urban mall" with no parking, and that would be nice & pedestrian. But that's not the Westfield Malls in LA. Though, I'd imagine this would be illegal almost everywhere in the US due to parking minimums.
    - estebank 3y ago
      > Sure, you could have an "urban mall" with no parking, and that would be nice & pedestrian. But that's not the Westfield Malls in LA. But it is what Westfield SF is. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Westfield+San+Francisco+Centre/@37.7841178,-122.408966,17z/data=!3m2!4b1!5s0x808580867221f5e3:0xe8c76fea3a7bfc5e!4m6!3m5!1s0x80858085de1e33eb:0x1a31405067f79d69!8m2!3d37.7841178!4d-122.4063857!16zL20vMGJ6Ymx3?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/place/Westfield+San+Francisco+Ce...
    - CydeWeys 3y ago
      Why are you talking about suburban malls in LA? That's not what this discussion is about.
      - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
        > All of Rick Caruso's malls in LA are, to be sure, probably profitable but terrible in terms of urban planning. That's the comment I was responding to.
- ribosometronome 3y ago
caycep 3y ago
It consumes large amounts of land into this one monolithic planned area beholden to one property owner, and yes, all issues w/ parking, etc. I would rather have a vibrant network of street-level properties w/ a healthy ecosystem of individual property owners surrounding a mass transit hub (i.e. LA metro stations if the metro can ever be developed to be useful...) The Caruso malls are imposing, Mordor like fortresses that gives the middle finger to the communities around it. Once inside, people with money can enjoy whatever corporate chain stores that can afford Caruso's rent and the property manager's whims.
- xeromal 3y ago
  My single argument is that malls can fit inside an urban environment. None of your points really matter for that reason.
  - caycep 3y ago
    considering the Grove and the Americana/Galleria wipe out 15-17 acres each of potential high density mixed use residential/commercial space in the heart of LA, all in the name of luxury shopping/parking, I would say they do.
    - xeromal 3y ago
      I'm saying it's possible. I didn't say the Grove/Americana are shining examples.

CydeWeys 3y ago

Malls in dense cities are great, actually. Asia is packed full of them and the malls are packed full of people.

brabel 3y ago
I was at this mall a few years ago, on my first time in SF. I was really disappointed. I was expecting something grandiose, like you'll see in China, Singapore, Qatar... but this mall was basically like what you'd see in a slightly decadent, midsize city somewhere very unremarkable, i.e. not what I expected in a city surrounded by the headquarters of some of the most valuable companies in the world which pay ridiculously high salaries to thousands of people each.
- CydeWeys 3y ago
  Hudson Yards in NYC is nicer, but still nothing I've seen in the US tops the best urban malls I've seen in Asia. They're truly on another level.
CalRobert 3y ago
Utrecht, darling of urbanists, has one right outside the steps of Utrecht Centraal train station too for that matter.

omginternets 3y ago

London has a mall (also called Westfield, incidentally) that is a perfect counter-example. The problem in SF isn’t the mall, it’s the laissez-faire approach to crime and public order.