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"One doesn't realize in early life that the price of freedom is loneliness. To be happy one must be tied." ~ CS Lewis I don't know the context of the quote and

"One doesn't realize in early life that the price of freedom is loneliness. To be happy one must be tied." ~ CS Lewis I don't know the context of the quote and I know next to nothing about CS Lewis, but having blown my life up at one point and experienced freedom on a level few on this planet could achieve (health, money, time, and will) the quote rang very true for me. I think some people grow up in a community and are rooted within that community, but those people are also subject to that community and there is no guarantee that that "community that surrounds you with love" is a good community. "Always be surrounded by love..." unless you are gay. Gay, trans, atheist, feminist, brown, an opioid addict, a questioner of authority, or otherwise different.

whitepaint 3y ago
> "Always be surrounded by love..." unless you are gay. Gay, trans, atheist, feminist, brown, an opioid addict, a questioner of authority, or otherwise different. Or a middle-aged white man. https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/ https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/
- 4ggr0 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - ViscountPenguin 3y ago
    Given what we know demographically about middle age white males (that they're relatively richer, more powerful e.t.c. than their peers) you can make some useful inferences about what doesn't work to decrease suicide risk. While there are probably many reasons for this a personal theory of mine (without any firm backing) is that Borderline Personality disorder is underdiagnosed in males. People with BPD are at a significantly higher risk of suicide, but very effective treatments exist namely dialectical behavioural therapy: a collection of emotional management and mindfulness exercises designed by a psychologists with BPD. The diagnostic criteria for BPD however, are heavily weighed towards symptoms associated with female socialisation. Even the treatment materials assume a female patient, which while not making them less effective is probably a hard sell to males in a sexist society.
  - Gud 3y ago
    A very small subset of middle aged white men hold any power(in predominantly white countries). Most of us are just trying to get by
    - 4ggr0 3y ago
      Well, sure. Still, a middle aged white man probably has other kinds of privileges than a black transsexual woman. That's kinda my point. I'm not saying that white males don't have it hard but as a white male I never really had to face any kind of discrimination for being who I am. And if it happened it was mostly done by white, heterosexual men. I wonder why nobody is mentioning the reasons that these suicides happen and instead just talks about the raw numbers.
  - whitepaint 3y ago
    We should not compare the magnitude of suffering based on race, sex or sexual orientation. That is how you divide people. That is how you alienate them. Telling those depressed white middle aged men that by default they have it easier because of history or because people at the top are usually white male might be one of main reasons they commit suicide the most.
    - 4ggr0 3y ago
      The difference is that most white men who kill themselves probably don't do it because they're white, heterosexual men. They do it because other aspects of their life, which is tragic in itself. On the other hand, people with other sexualities or non-cis people are being treated unfairly for who they are. That's why I didn't understand why you felt the need to mention white male suicides. It's pretty obvious that non-white, non-hetero people are being treated differently by default in our western societies. Plus, see this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36307885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36307885
- sergioisidoro 3y ago
  Comparing the suicide rate of those groups with middle aged white men (adjusted for the population size) is a bit silly. Some sources point to 40% of trans people having attempted suicide, and I don't think 40% of middle aged men have attempted suicide. In absolute numbers the suicide rate among men is an epidemic, but it's not fair to equate the two populations...
  - flippinburgers 3y ago
    Uh. Ok so one groups rate of successful suicide is more important than the others. Gotcha. At least we can agree that it is an epidemic among white middle aged men.
    - ruszki 3y ago
      The mentioned statistics are not comparable, so there is no "more importance" regarding this.
      - flippinburgers 3y ago
        As if.
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    Comparing rate of suicide to frequency of suicide attempts is dishonest. Histrionics grossly inflate the "attempt" rate. The most-dramatic demographic (teenagers) only succeeds 15% of the time, with 12.4% of teenaged girls attempting (5.3% for boys). Anything qualifies! I've got one who "attempted" suicide as a fucking negotiation tactic-- literally, "give me what I want or I'll kill myself." She's not trans, just Karen incarnate, and had no problems appropriating their "life-affirming care" argument to secure concessions for herself. Small wonder these numbers are so high-- it's a bullshit metric.
    - erhaetherth 3y ago
      Fwiw, sometimes they follow through.
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  Middle aged white men can be almost any of those things I listed. It floors me that you aren't flagged. Not because you mentioned middle aged white men (which I am), but because I am talking about reasons people get kicked out of the usually conservative communities they grow up in. Being a middle aged white man is not one of those reasons. Middle aged white men can choose their community. Being an atheist I was kicked out of mine. There's a difference between not choosing a community and not being welcome in it. Your response reeks of "white lives matter" to me.
  - whitepaint 3y ago
    You try to measure the levels of suffering based on sex, race and sexual orientation. That is why you will not be taken seriously by people who think. https://www.google.com/search?q=gay+pride https://www.google.com/search?q=gay+pride - that looks like there is no community for feminists, gay and trans? You mentioning you being an atheist is just a cherry on top.
ensocode 3y ago
>"community that surrounds you with love" This hurts a bit for those who broke out of a toxic or at least not so loving community. I love your comment and I will add this citation to my favorites but it assumes that the ties and relationships are full of love, which I think is not the case for everyone.
ViscountPenguin 3y ago
I can't speak for racism or being an addict, but in the English speaking world I think lots of these issues are overplayed. It's not uncommon for members of the trans community to recommend cutting off family members for acts as minor as accidental misgendering, while ignoring the very real harms of social isolation. As a trans person who's lived in a multi-generational household where only one other member knew I was trans. I can personally attest that even being closeted can be a good tradeoff for many people. Obviously in cases of violent queerphobia the calculus will be different, but I think people chronically underweigh community and make their own lives worse for it. There's a reason for the modern resurgence of communes, and it's not just rent. After decades of increasing social isolation we're finally coming back to the realisation that we're social monkeys.
hutzlibu 3y ago
"One doesn't realize in early life that the price of freedom is loneliness. To be happy one must be tied." There are traveller communities. You hook up, spend time together, split up and meet some of them around the globe later, if you want to.
- badpun 3y ago
  True bonds require years and decades of frequent interactions to grow.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    Nope. I have stronger bonds with people I met only a short, but very intense time, compared to most people I know all my life. But in general yes, frequent meeting in person is nice and needed.
matwood 3y ago
That quote is a great counter balance from the one in Fight Club, "Only when you have nothing, can you do anything." One issue I have with the CS Lewis quote is I have been happy at both extremes. Tied down when I was younger was not for me, but now that I'm older I deeply appreciate all the ties I have. I'm not sure I would have gained this appreciation without taking the path it took to get here.
version_five 3y ago
> "Always be surrounded by love..." unless you are gay. Gay, trans, atheist, feminist, brown, an opioid addict, a questioner of authority, or otherwise different. Questioner of authority doesn't belong on that list. All the others are mainstream things with media and political advocacy behind them. The last is a "denier" or "conspiracy theorist". 30 years ago they all might have belonged together (expect we had less racism), 15 years ago I understand why people clung to the idea, today it doesn't make any sense.
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  Communities have authority structures and questioning the basic assumptions of communities (should we allow gay people into our church?) is definitely ostracize-able behavior.
erhaetherth 3y ago
Atheists are "different" now? Did not know. Maybe it depends on the state.

whitepaint 3y ago

> "Always be surrounded by love..." unless you are gay. Gay, trans, atheist, feminist, brown, an opioid addict, a questioner of authority, or otherwise different. Or a middle-aged white man. https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/ https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/

4ggr0 3y ago
[flagged]
- ViscountPenguin 3y ago
  Given what we know demographically about middle age white males (that they're relatively richer, more powerful e.t.c. than their peers) you can make some useful inferences about what doesn't work to decrease suicide risk. While there are probably many reasons for this a personal theory of mine (without any firm backing) is that Borderline Personality disorder is underdiagnosed in males. People with BPD are at a significantly higher risk of suicide, but very effective treatments exist namely dialectical behavioural therapy: a collection of emotional management and mindfulness exercises designed by a psychologists with BPD. The diagnostic criteria for BPD however, are heavily weighed towards symptoms associated with female socialisation. Even the treatment materials assume a female patient, which while not making them less effective is probably a hard sell to males in a sexist society.
- Gud 3y ago
  A very small subset of middle aged white men hold any power(in predominantly white countries). Most of us are just trying to get by
  - 4ggr0 3y ago
    Well, sure. Still, a middle aged white man probably has other kinds of privileges than a black transsexual woman. That's kinda my point. I'm not saying that white males don't have it hard but as a white male I never really had to face any kind of discrimination for being who I am. And if it happened it was mostly done by white, heterosexual men. I wonder why nobody is mentioning the reasons that these suicides happen and instead just talks about the raw numbers.
- whitepaint 3y ago
  We should not compare the magnitude of suffering based on race, sex or sexual orientation. That is how you divide people. That is how you alienate them. Telling those depressed white middle aged men that by default they have it easier because of history or because people at the top are usually white male might be one of main reasons they commit suicide the most.
  - 4ggr0 3y ago
    The difference is that most white men who kill themselves probably don't do it because they're white, heterosexual men. They do it because other aspects of their life, which is tragic in itself. On the other hand, people with other sexualities or non-cis people are being treated unfairly for who they are. That's why I didn't understand why you felt the need to mention white male suicides. It's pretty obvious that non-white, non-hetero people are being treated differently by default in our western societies. Plus, see this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36307885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36307885
sergioisidoro 3y ago
Comparing the suicide rate of those groups with middle aged white men (adjusted for the population size) is a bit silly. Some sources point to 40% of trans people having attempted suicide, and I don't think 40% of middle aged men have attempted suicide. In absolute numbers the suicide rate among men is an epidemic, but it's not fair to equate the two populations...
- flippinburgers 3y ago
  Uh. Ok so one groups rate of successful suicide is more important than the others. Gotcha. At least we can agree that it is an epidemic among white middle aged men.
  - ruszki 3y ago
    The mentioned statistics are not comparable, so there is no "more importance" regarding this.
    - flippinburgers 3y ago
      As if.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  Comparing rate of suicide to frequency of suicide attempts is dishonest. Histrionics grossly inflate the "attempt" rate. The most-dramatic demographic (teenagers) only succeeds 15% of the time, with 12.4% of teenaged girls attempting (5.3% for boys). Anything qualifies! I've got one who "attempted" suicide as a fucking negotiation tactic-- literally, "give me what I want or I'll kill myself." She's not trans, just Karen incarnate, and had no problems appropriating their "life-affirming care" argument to secure concessions for herself. Small wonder these numbers are so high-- it's a bullshit metric.
  - erhaetherth 3y ago
    Fwiw, sometimes they follow through.
hayst4ck 3y ago
Middle aged white men can be almost any of those things I listed. It floors me that you aren't flagged. Not because you mentioned middle aged white men (which I am), but because I am talking about reasons people get kicked out of the usually conservative communities they grow up in. Being a middle aged white man is not one of those reasons. Middle aged white men can choose their community. Being an atheist I was kicked out of mine. There's a difference between not choosing a community and not being welcome in it. Your response reeks of "white lives matter" to me.
- whitepaint 3y ago
  You try to measure the levels of suffering based on sex, race and sexual orientation. That is why you will not be taken seriously by people who think. https://www.google.com/search?q=gay+pride https://www.google.com/search?q=gay+pride - that looks like there is no community for feminists, gay and trans? You mentioning you being an atheist is just a cherry on top.

ensocode 3y ago

>"community that surrounds you with love" This hurts a bit for those who broke out of a toxic or at least not so loving community. I love your comment and I will add this citation to my favorites but it assumes that the ties and relationships are full of love, which I think is not the case for everyone.

ViscountPenguin 3y ago

I can't speak for racism or being an addict, but in the English speaking world I think lots of these issues are overplayed. It's not uncommon for members of the trans community to recommend cutting off family members for acts as minor as accidental misgendering, while ignoring the very real harms of social isolation. As a trans person who's lived in a multi-generational household where only one other member knew I was trans. I can personally attest that even being closeted can be a good tradeoff for many people. Obviously in cases of violent queerphobia the calculus will be different, but I think people chronically underweigh community and make their own lives worse for it. There's a reason for the modern resurgence of communes, and it's not just rent. After decades of increasing social isolation we're finally coming back to the realisation that we're social monkeys.

hutzlibu 3y ago

"One doesn't realize in early life that the price of freedom is loneliness. To be happy one must be tied." There are traveller communities. You hook up, spend time together, split up and meet some of them around the globe later, if you want to.

badpun 3y ago
True bonds require years and decades of frequent interactions to grow.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Nope. I have stronger bonds with people I met only a short, but very intense time, compared to most people I know all my life. But in general yes, frequent meeting in person is nice and needed.

matwood 3y ago

That quote is a great counter balance from the one in Fight Club, "Only when you have nothing, can you do anything." One issue I have with the CS Lewis quote is I have been happy at both extremes. Tied down when I was younger was not for me, but now that I'm older I deeply appreciate all the ties I have. I'm not sure I would have gained this appreciation without taking the path it took to get here.

version_five 3y ago

> "Always be surrounded by love..." unless you are gay. Gay, trans, atheist, feminist, brown, an opioid addict, a questioner of authority, or otherwise different. Questioner of authority doesn't belong on that list. All the others are mainstream things with media and political advocacy behind them. The last is a "denier" or "conspiracy theorist". 30 years ago they all might have belonged together (expect we had less racism), 15 years ago I understand why people clung to the idea, today it doesn't make any sense.

hayst4ck 3y ago
Communities have authority structures and questioning the basic assumptions of communities (should we allow gay people into our church?) is definitely ostracize-able behavior.

erhaetherth 3y ago

Atheists are "different" now? Did not know. Maybe it depends on the state.