16 ms·

Having/using a temporary escape from otherwise unbearable misery is unfavourable for one's chances of finding and working towards a proper escape, so that's a d

Having/using a temporary escape from otherwise unbearable misery is unfavourable for one's chances of finding and working towards a proper escape, so that's a dubious positive.

hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
Without agreeing or disagreeing with either view, 100% of recovering drug addicts used drugs prior to seeking treatment for a drug addition - it’s not like people go into a total freeze while using drugs to escape, they may well come out with more problems than when they became addicted, but it’s not as binary as drugs do or don’t help.
- jojobas 3y ago
  It might not be a total freeze, but it's pretty binary - opiates and booze never help get out of poverty, homelessness, depression or pretty much anything else.
  - hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
    You can’t name a single successful person that was once an addict? I’m not saying it’s a good or productive option, but if compared to certain death, it’s at least recoverable.
    - aerio 3y ago
      Because of the taboo, it can be hard to find a lot of examples - successful people often choose not to speak up about it. Richard Branson is a pretty successful person by any metric and has been open about smoking weed since even before it was widely legalised
      - AniseAbyss 3y ago
        [dead]
    - pjc50 3y ago
      Quite a lot of successful, famous people have had coke addiction phases. You'd get some surprising results if you did random drug testing in white collar workplaces.
      - WeylandYutani 3y ago
        True and then you find out these people were incredibly shitty and destructive but at least they made some nice songs that are now used for car commercials so the universe balanced itself out, right?
        Gud 3y ago
        Many good people use coke recreationally. Not sure why you jump to the conclusion that they are shitty
        AniseAbyss 3y ago
        [dead]
    - jojobas 3y ago
      Can you name a single person who was in a bad spot and got out through drinking and doping?
      - pizza 3y ago
        It's not polite conversation in most circles but they're out there.
  - mdekkers 3y ago
    > It might not be a total freeze, but it's pretty binary - opiates and booze never help get out of poverty, homelessness, depression or pretty much anything else. Your statement is factually incorrect. Opiates are used frequently in clinical settings with significant positive outcomes.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      Opiates are used for pain relief when the pain is either short-term or terminal, and for cough management. There is no other clinical use. I'm surprised I have to spell it out - booze and opiates never helped anyone who was in a bad situation already.
      - hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
        Isn’t being in enough pain to require opiates the definition of ‘a bad situation’ though?
  - ztrww 3y ago
    Opiates can surely enable people to do things they would have been mostly incapable of doing before. Even alcohol might be very helpful fo some people in certain situations. The issue is the rather poor risk/reward ratio due to dependence and abuse potential.
saiya-jin 3y ago
Ah, a variant on good old fanatical christian trope that suffering is good, helps get through purgatory blah blah blah. 'Mother' Teresa would vehemently agree with you. How can you gauge other people's suffering? It can easily be completely crippling, not unlike extreme poverty is so stressful that it effectively blocks people from working themselves out of it. I am not just bashing you, I went through something similar, the worst breakup in my life was the motivation for me to start working out in the gym, lean even more on cool extreme sports, start running etc. But I know people in similar situation that simply couldn't move, stuck in vicious circle of self-pity, grief, self-harm in various ways, and more regrets. What we should do as society be tolerant, humble and accept that nobody, especially politicians with actual power know everything. Give people tools, explain or even guide them, be helpful, give a hand if needed, but otherwise let people be. You can't protect stupid from their own stupidity anyway, not through regulation.
- jojobas 3y ago
  >Ah, a variant on good old fanatical christian trope that suffering is good, helps get through purgatory blah blah blah. You couldn't be further from truth. Suffering sucks, trying to quench it with booze and opiates increases suffering in the long game (perhaps except acute pain right after severe injury, surgery or some such). > How can you gauge other people's suffering? Corresponding professionals developed meaningful tools to measure both physical pain and mental distress. >It can easily be completely crippling, not unlike extreme poverty is so stressful that it effectively blocks people from working themselves out of it. Fair enough. You being unhappy with my comment however suggests that drinking and doping helps these people in any way. >I am not just bashing you, I went through something similar, the worst breakup in my life was the motivation for me to start working out in the gym, lean even more on cool extreme sports, start running etc. Good on you. >But I know people in similar situation that simply couldn't move, stuck in vicious circle of self-pity, grief, self-harm in various ways, and more regrets. What does that prove? Would you recommend that they drink or dope? >What we should do as society be tolerant, humble and accept that nobody, especially politicians with actual power know everything. Sure should. We also should be blunt about things we do know, such as that alcohol and opiates do not help against poverty, depression, loneliness and pretty much any other adverse condition - this is what I wrote earlier and I don't understand why you'd object to that. >You can't protect stupid from their own stupidity anyway, not through regulation. Yes you can, at least you can prevent the kind of stuff going on in China around Opium Wars. (And don't you dare pull Rat Park on me).
Broken_Hippo 3y ago
Movies and games are a temporary escape as well. Should we not use those? Who are you to say what is proper? Sure, most things they say not to use at all - but at the same time, many drugs aren't really going to harm you if you are using occasionally for a fun escape. And I don't know if you know this, but some folks simply aren't going to escape their misery. Being just above poor for many years just sucks, for example. Having physical pain sucks. Past trauma sucks. Boredom sucks, and is absolutely miserable for some folks. Heck, I don't view my own life as bad, and I find some things as a positive escape that I just can't get anywhere else. It is more akin to finding different flavors of life. When I was miserable, I was also always sober save for nicotine and caffeine... the sobriety wasn't the cause of the misery though. It just isn't for you - not with that attitude, and perhaps you've not met folks with a decent attitude for it. And that's OK.

Having/using a temporary escape from otherwise unbearable misery is unfavourable for one's chances of finding and working towards a proper escape, so that's a dubious positive.

hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago

Without agreeing or disagreeing with either view, 100% of recovering drug addicts used drugs prior to seeking treatment for a drug addition - it’s not like people go into a total freeze while using drugs to escape, they may well come out with more problems than when they became addicted, but it’s not as binary as drugs do or don’t help.

jojobas 3y ago
It might not be a total freeze, but it's pretty binary - opiates and booze never help get out of poverty, homelessness, depression or pretty much anything else.
- hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
  You can’t name a single successful person that was once an addict? I’m not saying it’s a good or productive option, but if compared to certain death, it’s at least recoverable.
  - aerio 3y ago
    Because of the taboo, it can be hard to find a lot of examples - successful people often choose not to speak up about it. Richard Branson is a pretty successful person by any metric and has been open about smoking weed since even before it was widely legalised
    - AniseAbyss 3y ago
      [dead]
  - pjc50 3y ago
    Quite a lot of successful, famous people have had coke addiction phases. You'd get some surprising results if you did random drug testing in white collar workplaces.
    - WeylandYutani 3y ago
      True and then you find out these people were incredibly shitty and destructive but at least they made some nice songs that are now used for car commercials so the universe balanced itself out, right?
      - Gud 3y ago
        Many good people use coke recreationally. Not sure why you jump to the conclusion that they are shitty
        AniseAbyss 3y ago
        [dead]
  - jojobas 3y ago
    Can you name a single person who was in a bad spot and got out through drinking and doping?
    - pizza 3y ago
      It's not polite conversation in most circles but they're out there.
- mdekkers 3y ago
  > It might not be a total freeze, but it's pretty binary - opiates and booze never help get out of poverty, homelessness, depression or pretty much anything else. Your statement is factually incorrect. Opiates are used frequently in clinical settings with significant positive outcomes.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    Opiates are used for pain relief when the pain is either short-term or terminal, and for cough management. There is no other clinical use. I'm surprised I have to spell it out - booze and opiates never helped anyone who was in a bad situation already.
    - hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
      Isn’t being in enough pain to require opiates the definition of ‘a bad situation’ though?
- ztrww 3y ago
  Opiates can surely enable people to do things they would have been mostly incapable of doing before. Even alcohol might be very helpful fo some people in certain situations. The issue is the rather poor risk/reward ratio due to dependence and abuse potential.

saiya-jin 3y ago

Ah, a variant on good old fanatical christian trope that suffering is good, helps get through purgatory blah blah blah. 'Mother' Teresa would vehemently agree with you. How can you gauge other people's suffering? It can easily be completely crippling, not unlike extreme poverty is so stressful that it effectively blocks people from working themselves out of it. I am not just bashing you, I went through something similar, the worst breakup in my life was the motivation for me to start working out in the gym, lean even more on cool extreme sports, start running etc. But I know people in similar situation that simply couldn't move, stuck in vicious circle of self-pity, grief, self-harm in various ways, and more regrets. What we should do as society be tolerant, humble and accept that nobody, especially politicians with actual power know everything. Give people tools, explain or even guide them, be helpful, give a hand if needed, but otherwise let people be. You can't protect stupid from their own stupidity anyway, not through regulation.

jojobas 3y ago
>Ah, a variant on good old fanatical christian trope that suffering is good, helps get through purgatory blah blah blah. You couldn't be further from truth. Suffering sucks, trying to quench it with booze and opiates increases suffering in the long game (perhaps except acute pain right after severe injury, surgery or some such). > How can you gauge other people's suffering? Corresponding professionals developed meaningful tools to measure both physical pain and mental distress. >It can easily be completely crippling, not unlike extreme poverty is so stressful that it effectively blocks people from working themselves out of it. Fair enough. You being unhappy with my comment however suggests that drinking and doping helps these people in any way. >I am not just bashing you, I went through something similar, the worst breakup in my life was the motivation for me to start working out in the gym, lean even more on cool extreme sports, start running etc. Good on you. >But I know people in similar situation that simply couldn't move, stuck in vicious circle of self-pity, grief, self-harm in various ways, and more regrets. What does that prove? Would you recommend that they drink or dope? >What we should do as society be tolerant, humble and accept that nobody, especially politicians with actual power know everything. Sure should. We also should be blunt about things we do know, such as that alcohol and opiates do not help against poverty, depression, loneliness and pretty much any other adverse condition - this is what I wrote earlier and I don't understand why you'd object to that. >You can't protect stupid from their own stupidity anyway, not through regulation. Yes you can, at least you can prevent the kind of stuff going on in China around Opium Wars. (And don't you dare pull Rat Park on me).

Broken_Hippo 3y ago

Movies and games are a temporary escape as well. Should we not use those? Who are you to say what is proper? Sure, most things they say not to use at all - but at the same time, many drugs aren't really going to harm you if you are using occasionally for a fun escape. And I don't know if you know this, but some folks simply aren't going to escape their misery. Being just above poor for many years just sucks, for example. Having physical pain sucks. Past trauma sucks. Boredom sucks, and is absolutely miserable for some folks. Heck, I don't view my own life as bad, and I find some things as a positive escape that I just can't get anywhere else. It is more akin to finding different flavors of life. When I was miserable, I was also always sober save for nicotine and caffeine... the sobriety wasn't the cause of the misery though. It just isn't for you - not with that attitude, and perhaps you've not met folks with a decent attitude for it. And that's OK.