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What if all drugs are a little of both? Who is to say that SSRI antidepressants simply correct brain chemical imbalance to healthy levels rather than letting on

What if all drugs are a little of both? Who is to say that SSRI antidepressants simply correct brain chemical imbalance to healthy levels rather than letting one substitute a chemical high for real life changes? Who is to say that booze or opiates do not help by providing at least a temporary escape from otherwise unbearable misery. Yes, there are extremes, like people who would be vegetables or harm themselves without psychiatric drugs. But if it comes to that and mainstream prescription drugs do not work, I would not begrudge them trying MDMA or even cocaine to have at least some quality of life some of the time. Equally, some individuals can normalize using prescription drugs or cope using social connections, creativity, nature, physical exercise, meditation, religion, military service. Isn't a chemical fix depriving them and society of deeper achievements that may have made them feel allright?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jbverschoor 3y ago
Listen to Andrew Huberman’s latest podcast about it. MDMA is very unique compared to other drugs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slUCmZJDXrk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slUCmZJDXrk
- jychang 3y ago
  Huberman skips over a LOT of info in that podcast. First off, MDMA isn’t unique, there are a lot of other empathogens. MDA, 5-MAPB, 6-APB, etc. It’s just the most studied because it’s the most popular/oldest one.
  - Rastonbury 3y ago
    MDMA also is also subjectively the best feeling the best on that list apart from MDA, have friends who have dabbled in designer chems but always go back to MDMA. Used the others to cycle tolerances
    - carlmr 3y ago
      >Used the others to cycle tolerances Since they all cause serotonin dumps, I kind of doubt (uneducated guess) that this would be effective, is there any reason to believe that they should create the same tolerance?
      - Rastonbury 3y ago
        Yeah was a bit unclear, they used other designer chems to cycle mainly psychedlics like 2CB. Googled if there were cross tolerances
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  Is Huberman the real deal? He seems like more of a celebrity than someone who gives good and accurate information.
  - andelink 3y ago
    My good friend is a big fan of his. Listens and cites many of his episodes. He frequently shares his learnings with me. I haven’t given him much of a listen because everything my friend has shared with me I already knew, lots of things I remember thinking “I learned that in high school.” But if Huberman is an accessible voice and helps educate people I’m all for it.
carabiner 3y ago
You're catching on. This concept is known as, "We are all on drugs."
- mettamage 3y ago
  Actually a concept that I live by, having tried enough actual "drugs" (all legally ;-) thanks Amsterdam! ) and having done a lot of meditation and similar things. It's all the same. An exogenous drug acts way quicker though
- LocalH 3y ago
  Perception is a hell of a drug. - me, paraphrasing Rick James
jojobas 3y ago
Having/using a temporary escape from otherwise unbearable misery is unfavourable for one's chances of finding and working towards a proper escape, so that's a dubious positive.
- hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
  Without agreeing or disagreeing with either view, 100% of recovering drug addicts used drugs prior to seeking treatment for a drug addition - it’s not like people go into a total freeze while using drugs to escape, they may well come out with more problems than when they became addicted, but it’s not as binary as drugs do or don’t help.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    It might not be a total freeze, but it's pretty binary - opiates and booze never help get out of poverty, homelessness, depression or pretty much anything else.
    - hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
      You can’t name a single successful person that was once an addict? I’m not saying it’s a good or productive option, but if compared to certain death, it’s at least recoverable.
      - aerio 3y ago
        Because of the taboo, it can be hard to find a lot of examples - successful people often choose not to speak up about it. Richard Branson is a pretty successful person by any metric and has been open about smoking weed since even before it was widely legalised
        AniseAbyss 3y ago
        [dead]
      - 3y ago
nashashmi 3y ago
Then all drugs are too be banned. Intoxicants should never be given a green light. It is sad that libertarians are trying to argue for live and let live in the case of drugs. Did they not learn from tobacco companies that commerce does not live and let live. They persuade petulantly until everyone is a customer. Nevermind if it is healthy. I'm going to be down voted by the drug loving crowd, but I won't stop fighting for people to see and understand that drugs should never be a commercialized enterprise.
- ztrww 3y ago
  the issue with tobacco is primarily its most prevalent consumption method. Nicotine is of course addictive but it’s not a particular dangerous and potential has some positive effects. Not that different to caffeine.
  - nashashmi 3y ago
    Point isn’t about whether tobacco can be consumed in other forms. Point is that when there is an industry that revolves around the consumption of an item that industry will try to promote that item, even if it causes harm. Tobacco is one industry. oil is another. In such cases, why would you legalize intoxicants? you would only promote intoxicants that way.
    - ztrww 3y ago
      Nicotine or tobacco even are not intoxicants, strictly speaking. Also what you’re proposing seems like an extremely slippery slope. What’s the issue with intoxicants? They are harmful? Well a lot of things are.. why don’t we ban sugar, saturated fat, maybe all the things that encourages sedentary behavior? Television, sofas, comfy beds? All illegal. What’s the objective?
      - nashashmi 3y ago
        Are you arguing that they are equivalent to drugs?
girvo 3y ago
Heroin initially stopped me from killing myself. Even addiction gave me a reason to “live”, such as a was, a routine (albeit a broken painful one) that I was missing prior. Still a horrible outcome of course; opioid dependence sucks. The Buvidal injection is a life changer for me.
- tipiirai 3y ago
  Wow. Pretty intense story. Did you actually start taking heroin due to suicidal thoughts?
  - girvo 3y ago
    It’s more that my crippling untreated depression as a 16-17 year old (plus some pretty brutal trauma) lead to me taking risks with little regard for the consequences, and one of those was opiates and heroin. It really did give me some measure of “purpose” and it really did keep my suicidal thoughts at bay. Not worth the long term consequences of addiction/dependency, but it wasn’t pure hedonism as the reason I was using it either.
    - tipiirai 3y ago
      Makes sense. Thanks for sharing
- DougEiffel 3y ago
  Congrats on making it through and getting the injection. I did Suboxone for a couple years, the Sublocade injection for a few more, and then I stopped my Sublocade ~5 months ago. My total clean time is almost 7 years now. I wish more people knew about Sublocade and Buvidal. I always tell people that opioid addiction pretty much has a cure these days but they are so hesitant to start the injections because they never heard of it.
  - girvo 3y ago
    Congrats to you! Yeah it’s literally a miracle drug as far as I’m concerned. I was on Suboxone/Subutex for 8ish years, relapsed for a few weeks despite years of compliance on the program over the hell time that was COVID lockdowns, and so finally pulled the trigger and swapped to the injection. It’s infinitely better not waking up every morning in mild withdrawals. It’s a godsend, and everything I’ve heard is coming off it is pretty easy, well as easy as it could really be anyway.
pjc50 3y ago
> Who is to say that SSRI antidepressants simply correct brain chemical imbalance to healthy levels rather than letting one substitute a chemical high for real life changes? SSRIs do not result in anything resembling a "high". Neither do tricyclic antidepressants, lithium salts for bipolar disorder, and so on. I have long since lost it, but many years ago a friend of mine wrote down his experience of temporarily stopping his bipolar medication in order to do a burst of work during the hypermanic phase. It made it very clear that, for him, _not_ taking the drugs resulted in a dramatic and sometimes hazardous high/low cycle with a frequency of days, in a way that resembles the experience other people have with recreational drugs.
- marssaxman 3y ago
  > SSRIs do not result in anything resembling a "high". In my experience taking sertraline, years ago, it actually did feel like a very mild sort of high. I remember noticing that colors seemed to have literally become brighter, and physical sensations were more pleasant in general. If it were possible to microdose MDMA, I imagine that might feel similar.
  - katdork 3y ago
    that just sounds like relief from depression, though? people would even say the world feels or seems grey when they're depressed.
    - marssaxman 3y ago
      Well, yes, but that's kind of the point - it's just a chemical change in the brain which results in changed perception. Whether you think of that process as therapeutic or recreational depends on the context and your worldview.
      - katdork 3y ago
        i think it doesn't matter what is therapeutic and what is recreational. i think that's also not something the state can really decide, either? nor should it make this decision every time someone puts something into their body. that we should just give people the capacity to do what they are going to do either way, safely properly and teach them how to reduce their self-harm and societal harm with what they are doing!
TexanFeller 3y ago
> Who is to say that SSRI antidepressants simply correct brain chemical imbalance to healthy levels rather than Well no one is to say that because the serotonin hypothesis was shown to be wrong, or at least incredibly dubious.
WeylandYutani 3y ago
Drugs alleviate the symptoms it doesn't fix the cause. Also the body tends to crave more of it after extended use.
- cultofmetatron 3y ago
  Thats a very broad statement to make. there are plenty of drugs where the last thing you want to take is that drug again anytime soon and yet have therapeutic effects on your mental health.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jbverschoor 3y ago

Listen to Andrew Huberman’s latest podcast about it. MDMA is very unique compared to other drugs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slUCmZJDXrk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slUCmZJDXrk

jychang 3y ago
Huberman skips over a LOT of info in that podcast. First off, MDMA isn’t unique, there are a lot of other empathogens. MDA, 5-MAPB, 6-APB, etc. It’s just the most studied because it’s the most popular/oldest one.
- Rastonbury 3y ago
  MDMA also is also subjectively the best feeling the best on that list apart from MDA, have friends who have dabbled in designer chems but always go back to MDMA. Used the others to cycle tolerances
  - carlmr 3y ago
    >Used the others to cycle tolerances Since they all cause serotonin dumps, I kind of doubt (uneducated guess) that this would be effective, is there any reason to believe that they should create the same tolerance?
    - Rastonbury 3y ago
      Yeah was a bit unclear, they used other designer chems to cycle mainly psychedlics like 2CB. Googled if there were cross tolerances
ChatGTP 3y ago
Is Huberman the real deal? He seems like more of a celebrity than someone who gives good and accurate information.
- andelink 3y ago
  My good friend is a big fan of his. Listens and cites many of his episodes. He frequently shares his learnings with me. I haven’t given him much of a listen because everything my friend has shared with me I already knew, lots of things I remember thinking “I learned that in high school.” But if Huberman is an accessible voice and helps educate people I’m all for it.

carabiner 3y ago

You're catching on. This concept is known as, "We are all on drugs."

mettamage 3y ago
Actually a concept that I live by, having tried enough actual "drugs" (all legally ;-) thanks Amsterdam! ) and having done a lot of meditation and similar things. It's all the same. An exogenous drug acts way quicker though
LocalH 3y ago
Perception is a hell of a drug. - me, paraphrasing Rick James

jojobas 3y ago

Having/using a temporary escape from otherwise unbearable misery is unfavourable for one's chances of finding and working towards a proper escape, so that's a dubious positive.

hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
Without agreeing or disagreeing with either view, 100% of recovering drug addicts used drugs prior to seeking treatment for a drug addition - it’s not like people go into a total freeze while using drugs to escape, they may well come out with more problems than when they became addicted, but it’s not as binary as drugs do or don’t help.
- jojobas 3y ago
  It might not be a total freeze, but it's pretty binary - opiates and booze never help get out of poverty, homelessness, depression or pretty much anything else.
  - hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
    You can’t name a single successful person that was once an addict? I’m not saying it’s a good or productive option, but if compared to certain death, it’s at least recoverable.
    - aerio 3y ago
      Because of the taboo, it can be hard to find a lot of examples - successful people often choose not to speak up about it. Richard Branson is a pretty successful person by any metric and has been open about smoking weed since even before it was widely legalised
      - AniseAbyss 3y ago
        [dead]
    - 3y ago

nashashmi 3y ago

Then all drugs are too be banned. Intoxicants should never be given a green light. It is sad that libertarians are trying to argue for live and let live in the case of drugs. Did they not learn from tobacco companies that commerce does not live and let live. They persuade petulantly until everyone is a customer. Nevermind if it is healthy. I'm going to be down voted by the drug loving crowd, but I won't stop fighting for people to see and understand that drugs should never be a commercialized enterprise.

ztrww 3y ago
the issue with tobacco is primarily its most prevalent consumption method. Nicotine is of course addictive but it’s not a particular dangerous and potential has some positive effects. Not that different to caffeine.
- nashashmi 3y ago
  Point isn’t about whether tobacco can be consumed in other forms. Point is that when there is an industry that revolves around the consumption of an item that industry will try to promote that item, even if it causes harm. Tobacco is one industry. oil is another. In such cases, why would you legalize intoxicants? you would only promote intoxicants that way.
  - ztrww 3y ago
    Nicotine or tobacco even are not intoxicants, strictly speaking. Also what you’re proposing seems like an extremely slippery slope. What’s the issue with intoxicants? They are harmful? Well a lot of things are.. why don’t we ban sugar, saturated fat, maybe all the things that encourages sedentary behavior? Television, sofas, comfy beds? All illegal. What’s the objective?
    - nashashmi 3y ago
      Are you arguing that they are equivalent to drugs?

girvo 3y ago

Heroin initially stopped me from killing myself. Even addiction gave me a reason to “live”, such as a was, a routine (albeit a broken painful one) that I was missing prior. Still a horrible outcome of course; opioid dependence sucks. The Buvidal injection is a life changer for me.

tipiirai 3y ago
Wow. Pretty intense story. Did you actually start taking heroin due to suicidal thoughts?
- girvo 3y ago
  It’s more that my crippling untreated depression as a 16-17 year old (plus some pretty brutal trauma) lead to me taking risks with little regard for the consequences, and one of those was opiates and heroin. It really did give me some measure of “purpose” and it really did keep my suicidal thoughts at bay. Not worth the long term consequences of addiction/dependency, but it wasn’t pure hedonism as the reason I was using it either.
  - tipiirai 3y ago
    Makes sense. Thanks for sharing
DougEiffel 3y ago
Congrats on making it through and getting the injection. I did Suboxone for a couple years, the Sublocade injection for a few more, and then I stopped my Sublocade ~5 months ago. My total clean time is almost 7 years now. I wish more people knew about Sublocade and Buvidal. I always tell people that opioid addiction pretty much has a cure these days but they are so hesitant to start the injections because they never heard of it.
- girvo 3y ago
  Congrats to you! Yeah it’s literally a miracle drug as far as I’m concerned. I was on Suboxone/Subutex for 8ish years, relapsed for a few weeks despite years of compliance on the program over the hell time that was COVID lockdowns, and so finally pulled the trigger and swapped to the injection. It’s infinitely better not waking up every morning in mild withdrawals. It’s a godsend, and everything I’ve heard is coming off it is pretty easy, well as easy as it could really be anyway.

pjc50 3y ago

> Who is to say that SSRI antidepressants simply correct brain chemical imbalance to healthy levels rather than letting one substitute a chemical high for real life changes? SSRIs do not result in anything resembling a "high". Neither do tricyclic antidepressants, lithium salts for bipolar disorder, and so on. I have long since lost it, but many years ago a friend of mine wrote down his experience of temporarily stopping his bipolar medication in order to do a burst of work during the hypermanic phase. It made it very clear that, for him, _not_ taking the drugs resulted in a dramatic and sometimes hazardous high/low cycle with a frequency of days, in a way that resembles the experience other people have with recreational drugs.

marssaxman 3y ago
> SSRIs do not result in anything resembling a "high". In my experience taking sertraline, years ago, it actually did feel like a very mild sort of high. I remember noticing that colors seemed to have literally become brighter, and physical sensations were more pleasant in general. If it were possible to microdose MDMA, I imagine that might feel similar.
- katdork 3y ago
  that just sounds like relief from depression, though? people would even say the world feels or seems grey when they're depressed.
  - marssaxman 3y ago
    Well, yes, but that's kind of the point - it's just a chemical change in the brain which results in changed perception. Whether you think of that process as therapeutic or recreational depends on the context and your worldview.
    - katdork 3y ago
      i think it doesn't matter what is therapeutic and what is recreational. i think that's also not something the state can really decide, either? nor should it make this decision every time someone puts something into their body. that we should just give people the capacity to do what they are going to do either way, safely properly and teach them how to reduce their self-harm and societal harm with what they are doing!

TexanFeller 3y ago

> Who is to say that SSRI antidepressants simply correct brain chemical imbalance to healthy levels rather than Well no one is to say that because the serotonin hypothesis was shown to be wrong, or at least incredibly dubious.

WeylandYutani 3y ago

Drugs alleviate the symptoms it doesn't fix the cause. Also the body tends to crave more of it after extended use.

cultofmetatron 3y ago
Thats a very broad statement to make. there are plenty of drugs where the last thing you want to take is that drug again anytime soon and yet have therapeutic effects on your mental health.