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SEC: "The vast majority of digital tokens are securities!" Anyone: "Okay then, is [insert ANY crypto here other than BTC] a security?" SEC: "We decline to ans
by mthoms 3y ago
SEC: "The vast majority of digital tokens are securities!"
Anyone: "Okay then, is [insert ANY crypto here other than BTC] a security?"
SEC: "We decline to answer, or give a hint, but the vast majority of digital tokens are securities!"
I really don't care what happens, or how it got to this point, but this state of affairs is absolutely and unequivocally ridiculous and absurd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhA1dZXeao0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhA1dZXeao0
- ceejayoz 3y agoCoinbase: “We list dozens of coins, including all the big ones. Maybe they’re all in the tiny minority?” SEC: “No. Stop playing games. You have to register.”
- everfree 3y ago> Maybe they’re all in the tiny minority? Coinbase lists less than 300 of the tens of thousands of cryptocurrencies out there - indeed a tiny minority of them, and they do have some kind of legal review process, so while that claim may well be untrue, it's not absurd on its face.
- ceejayoz 3y agoAnd you think all the SEC’s “hint hint, time to register!” for years was understood by Coinbase as “you guys are fine, we’re not talking about you”?
- everfree 3y agoI don't agree that a regulatory agency saying "hint hint time to register" for years on end is an effective way to regulate. The first step of effective regulation is to state exactly what is out of compliance, which they finally did only a few days ago by listing which particular coins are the ones that put Coinbase out of compliance. The second step is to explain why those particular coins cause them to be non-compliant and why other coins (Bitcoin) are exempt, in such a way that Coinbase has rules they can apply to determine whether a particular new coin is compliant or not. That clarity is the part we're still waiting for.
- ceejayoz 3y ago> I don't agree that a regulatory agency saying "hint hint time to register" for years on end is an effective way to regulate. Nah, the alternative is why cops get away with everything via qualified immunity. Conmen don’t get given a pat list of what is and isn’t allowed; no one wants to play the “but you saaaaaaid!” game that results.
- everfree 3y ago> Conmen don’t get given a pat list of what is and isn’t allowed; no one wants to play the “but you saaaaaaid!” game that results. Yes, they do. Civil courts are full of almost nothing besides "but you said" games. You're just describing the status quo of how law works.
- ceejayoz 3y agoNo; “fraud” is illegal. They don’t have to specifically list each of the different possible techniques somewhere. Same with securities. The Howey test exists. The courts and Congress occasionally find a tweak that needs making, but they aren’t likely to be impressed by shenanigans like “oh it isn’t a shared enterprise because of this cute quirky thing”.
- everfree 3y agoSo according to you, following the SEC's lead: Selling Bitcoin is legal, selling Solana is illegal, and selling ETH (Ethereum) is in a quasi-state of legal and illegal. Nobody knows exactly why any of this is the case, and that's totally fine with you because you don't want to dive into any of these "cute quirky things".
- ceejayoz 3y agoThey've explained their reasoning in various spots. For example: https://www.axios.com/2022/06/28/bitcoin-is-the-only-coin-the-sec-chair-will-call-a-commodity https://www.axios.com/2022/06/28/bitcoin-is-the-only-coin-th... > Elsewhere in the speech, Hinman explained: "If the network on which [a] token or coin is to function is sufficiently decentralized — where purchasers would no longer reasonably expect a person or group to carry out essential managerial or entrepreneurial efforts — the assets may not represent an investment contract."
- KingOfCoders 3y ago"Coinbase lists less than 300" With only BTC Coinbase would not be an exchange but a wallet.
- everfree 3y agoThe US dollar is not a security. They could have a BTC/USD trading pair.
- mthoms 3y agoThat may be the case, but refusing to state which ones and why is not "clarity". Plain and simple. Like I said, I don't care what happens - but as an outside observer - it's ridiculous.
- KingOfCoders 3y ago[flagged]
- mthoms 3y agoPlease don't post comments that don't contribute anything to the discussion.
- KingOfCoders 3y ago[flagged]
- mthoms 3y agoMy comment pointed out that they outright refuse to state which ones fall into which category. That is a 100% factual statement and highly relevant to the discussion. If you'd like to provide a rebuttal to that, be my guest. But childish swipes that don't address the point being made are just that... childish.
- KingOfCoders 3y agoI can't see "Please don't post comments that don't contribute anything to the discussion." as highly relevant to the discussion.
- Dylan16807 3y agoDefending a bad meta comment is the worst option of all.
- Dylan16807 3y agoThey're not listing coins at random. They claim to have vetting specifically considering this kind of regulation and to reject the vast majority of coins. Even if we assume Coinbase is in the wrong here, a hypothetical exchange with better vetting could also list dozens of coins and be entirely legit with no securities.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Anyone: "Okay then, is [insert ANY crypto here other than BTC] a security?" The SEC has been super clear for most crypto except Bitcoin and Ether.
- mthoms 3y agoReally? Where can I learn about which cryptocurrencies constitute securities and which don't? Is there a list?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Where can I learn about which cryptocurrencies constitute securities and which don't? Is there a list? Yes. Start with the SEC’s complaint against Coinbase: SOL, ADA, MATIC and ten others [1]. Beyond that, ask a securities lawyer or ask the SEC. Coinbase did. The SEC answered. Coinbase didn’t like the answer, and focussed its messaging on irrelevant statements (or a lack thereof) by Gensler about Bitcoin and Ether. If someone only cash traded those two, they would have a legitimate argument against the SEC’s ambiguity. But practically nobody does: instead they operate unlicensed and illegally-configured securities outfits. [1] https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2023/comp-pr2023-102.pdf https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2023/comp-pr2023-1... 114