6 ms·

I installed Windows 10 (not even 11!) recently on a random laptop and was appalled by the amount of BS in the initial setup process. Forced me to make a Microso

I installed Windows 10 (not even 11!) recently on a random laptop and was appalled by the amount of BS in the initial setup process. Forced me to make a Microsoft online account seemingly with remote access to my PC, tried to sign me up for several different free trials, then tried multiple times to push me to Edge instead of Chrome. The UI has new crap like the Bing search on the taskbar and in the center of the desktop. It finally left me along after a while, but I know there will be updates and Edge will try to reassert itself. Win10 wasn't this bad a few years ago. I'm not normally careful about privacy and never felt Linux was a worthwhile alternative on desktop, but this was so plain annoying that I'd probably pick Linux on my primary PC nowadays if I didn't already have a Mac.

NotYourLawyer 3y ago
> Forced me to make a Microsoft online account They actually don’t quite force this. They just make it very difficult to find the option to use a local account instead. (Unless they’ve changed things for the worse since last time I installed windows. Very possible!)
- hot_gril 3y ago
  I remember it being hard before but still having the button hidden somewhere. This time I looked for it and didn't see it. Maybe if I didn't connect it to wifi at all, it would've let me do it. I originally connected cause I figured there'd be OTA updates and wasn't about to restart the whole process. Also, the entire reason I was even doing 10 instead of 7 is this laptop came with 10.
- tredre3 3y ago
  On W10 you only get the option to create a local account if your network is disconnected, and only after multiple screens of insistence. A normal person being asked to connect to wifi during setup will do so and never have the option to not create a MS account. So it may not be impossible to create an offline account, but for all intents and purposes they do force your hand. On W11 you have to resort to more esoteric tricks, you can't actually complete setup normally without network and a ms account.
  - Strom 3y ago
    > On W11 you have to resort to more esoteric tricks, you can't actually complete setup normally without network and a ms account. Maybe with the latest images, but I have an original W11 RTM image that installs just fine without network and a MS account.
    - LeoPanthera 3y ago
      Probably you have the "Pro" version, which allows this. The Home version does not.
    - star-glider 3y ago
      Correct: with the latest images, W11 will not under any circumstances allow you to avoid creating an MS account. It will insist you go online and halt the installer until you do. Rufus (https://rufus.ie/en/ https://rufus.ie/en/) offers an option to revert fix this, but you still have to ensure that you keep wifi disconnected and ethernet unplugged during install.
      - mentalpiracy 3y ago
        Actually yes it will - at least as of last weekend. During OOBE setup, after connecting to Ethernet or Wi-Fi, you must select “join a work or school domain.” I got tripped up by this too because I was insistent on not connecting it to the internet during setup, but the local account only switch had moved since I last checked up on it. It will still ask you three or four times ARE YOU SURE you don’t want to sign in to a Microsoft account. But at least you can still avoid it for the moment.
        kup0 3y ago
        Probably only for Pro edition, not Home
        hypercube33 3y ago
        I'm fairly sure if you try to login with f@you.com it'll try to log you in and fail a few times and let you make an account.
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  Isnt this a dark pattern. I think you are apologizing for them if you say it wasnt forced. It sure feels forced.
  - NotYourLawyer 3y ago
    Oh it’s a dark pattern for sure, and it’s really shitty. I’m not apologizing at all, just putting a comment out there to let people know that it’s actually possible to do what you’re trying to do.
- Liquidor 3y ago
  It's changed for the worse :( I had to help my grandma get her new laptop up and running for the first time, with Windows 11, and it got to the account screen and there were no hidden/vague options to skip or go local. I assume this is because they detected an internet connection. She literally had to get an MS account which apparently didn't work because she already had one from the last laptop. MS wanted to send her a recovery code to her email... Which she couldn't access because no computer. Oh and the amount of opt-in screens after that? 10+ screens. No joke. It's insane. There's no way she would be able to use her new laptop if she didn't get 2 hours of help.
  - omniglottal 3y ago
    Correction: those were opt-out screens.
eulers_secret 3y ago
I literally reinstalled win10 yesterday and you’re right on. I couldn’t even install due to “a media driver your computer needs is missing” with no further info and no workaround. This was after mbr2gpt.exe failed and gave no information on why and every online resource was SEO crap without any info on fixing it. I eventually used Ventoy, it works on Linux and solved my problems immediately. It also forces the win installer to think it’s offline to avoid the dark pattern of online-“only” accounts. Then it was loaded with adverts and other horseshit. Seriously degraded experience. All of this because when I was trying to play a game pass game the play button just did nothing. No logs, no info, nothing. The online help was pretty good, but removing/resetting/reinstalling all game related software did nothing. Real pain when there’s no feedback.
- graypegg 3y ago
  > A media driver your computer needs is missing Oh how I remember the days of installing proprietary media codecs on Ubunt-… oh wait we’re talking about Windows? In 2023?
- hot_gril 3y ago
  > every online resource was SEO crap without any info on fixing it Man, searching anything related to Microsoft software is an instant trip down scam lane. It's not their fault even. Part of me is glad the majority aren't using Macs and bringing that over here.
  - Clamchop 3y ago
    It's a little bit their fault. They host forums but appear not to tend to them. There's endless trash there from external "experts" that rarely engage with the specific problem and have no particular advice beyond sfc /scannow. Good troubleshooting advice can be found but good gravy is it hard to dig up.
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      I've seen those forums, and they're the worst. Idk why those "experts" are spending so much deliberate time giving people wrong advice.
bborud 3y ago
I bought a cheap laptop to run some industrial automation software and i was shocked at how bad Windows still is. I used to dislike Windows for being slow, stupid and buggy. Instead of addressing quality they just make the OS more creepy.
- NovaDudely 3y ago
  All we really want is Windows 2000 with modern security updates and drivers. Instead we get this non-sense!
slaymaker1907 3y ago
You can use a local account, but it’s really hidden away (you have to use command prompt at setup time). I had to do this because my WiFi requires a browser to setup and my Ethernet had missing drivers.
belter 3y ago
In the unfortunate scenarios, where you need to use a Windows Install and or a VM never start without running through something like this: https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater WARNING: Use at your own risk, no guarantees. Personally never broke anything for me.
- angry_moose 3y ago
  I tried Blackbird (similar idea) a couple times on my Surface and it hosed the install twice. I'd still make it to desktop but it was a barely usable mess, and the "restore" functionality didn't fix it. I've been pretty leery of them ever since - definitely don't try it on a critical machine, and you're really at the mercy of Microsoft changing something every update. Definitely "use at your own risk" territory. https://www.getblackbird.net/ https://www.getblackbird.net/
- akikoo 3y ago
  PS > Get-AppxPackage -allusers | Where-Object {$_.name -notlike "store" -and $_.name -notlike "linux" -and $_.name -notlike "ubuntu"} | Remove-AppxPackage PS > Get-AppxprovisionedPackage -online | Where-Object {$_.name -notlike "store" -and $_.name -notlike "linux" -and $_.name -notlike "ubuntu"} | Remove-AppxprovisionedPackage -online
speeder 3y ago
When I was finally forced to ditch Win7 due to lack of drivers, I installed (alongside Linux, that I've been using for years), a modified Win10 with all the telemetry crap and other stuff removed. My parents have unmodified Win10 and that thing just annoys me to no end, ads, resetting settings after update, etc... Including some behaviour that caused revenue loss in my parents company.
deelowe 3y ago
Is pass-through good enough on modern hardware where I can just run a windows VM for gaming and then shutdown windows when I'm done? This would be the ideal scenario for me. I applaud Valve's efforts with proton, but I think Microsoft will start pushing back. I bet starfield will be very difficult to run well in Linux, for example.
- genewitch 3y ago
  yes, with vfio. I've had a windows 10 in a VM on my "main desktop" for nearly 3 years now. Gentoo gets two screens and an "ok" GPU, windows gets the beefier GPU and its own screen. I use qemu, there may be other ways to do it. The linux machine can't "see" the other GPU or screen(s). if you want to do this, there are a couple of gotchas. One i'd recommend bearing in mind is not using identical cards. Either two vendors or two different types of cards (like a 1060 and a 1070). This makes it easier to stub the windows card and also write/edit the scripts (which are probably searchable on goog with "vfio-bind"). The second is one that i lost the information about, but if it affects you, it should be possible to dig up the info. Some games get micro-stuttering or stuttering when running with vfio under qemu; the fix can be an application that applies settings on windows or editing the windows registry. All that aside, it works fine. The audio latency is minimal, but if you have a machine with more than 24 PCIe lanes, you can just dedicate an entire USB PCI card to windows, passing that through and plugging all the windows related hardware through that. I think Linus (LTT) mentioned doing something like this, virtualizing even multiple windows machines on a single machine with the threadripper (32-64 lanes) and Epyc (64, 96, or 128 lanes) - having a dedicated USB and GPU for each virtualized desktop. Nice.
  - intelVISA 3y ago
    Fwiw the stuttering fix you describe is likely moving from IRQ to MSI, it's common to edit the passed-through PCI device in regedit to use MSI (message signalled interrupts) instead.
    - genewitch 3y ago
      Yes, that's what it was. And i just remember the arch wiki had something about it back when i set it up, but it was[0] incomplete - it fixed most of the issues i had with my setup, but not the MSI (i think) stuff. The site that did have the correct information and possibly even a windows download link was light grey text on a black background, and otherwise a very minimal site. I had it bookmarked on firefox on an old PC, and for some reason firefox loves deleting history/bookmarks that are older than some age. I've never bothered to track it down and it bites me every couple of years when i try to find/remember information just like this. Technology, it's so advanced. [0] it may be more complete now. I probably wouldn't do this again myself; but at the time i had been "selling" this service (qemu/xen virtualization of PCI cards) for linux on linux for over a decade, so it was something i already knew enough about to stumble through - windows on linux.
yonatan8070 3y ago
Pro tip: never give Windows internet access during setup. Windows 11 will not let you continue without an online account unless you use a tool like Ventoy which automatically bypasses it
- princevegeta89 3y ago
  Not fully true. There is a way to open command prompt and skip the account login and the entire setup https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-11-without-microsoft-account https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-11-witho...
  - NayamAmarshe 3y ago
    How kind of Microsoft to allow us to skip such a critical step using command prompt.
    - princevegeta89 3y ago
      I bet my ass it was originally included for OEM and hardware manufacturers
  - yonatan8070 3y ago
    I updated my comment, thanks for the correction!
beodbdodbsk 3y ago
the only difference for osx is that apple leaves that data collection to when you try to download security updates for your apps. Microsoft at least let us get security updates without accounts aftet we dodge all that during install. apple doesn't. login or get out.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  You don't need an account to update your OS, and you don't need to download apps from the Mac App Store (I never do).
NayamAmarshe 3y ago
> and never felt Linux was a worthwhile alternative on desktop ZorinOS (https://zorin.com/os https://zorin.com/os) can hopefully change your perspective.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  I've tried em all. It's not that I need a more user-friendly DE like Zorin's, it's more that the Linux kernel lacks broad support. One small but kinda important example is how simply watching Netflix requires workarounds and won't run above 1080p. Zoom and Discord also have caveats. And hardware peripherals are always questionable with Linux, whereas they'll get 0 stars if they don't 100% work with Windows (even if it's Windows's fault). Also, random other users are probably better off with Ubuntu than Zorin purely because that's what more people use and you can actually Google how to do stuff in it. Even a lot of Zorin questions will link to Ubuntu tutorials.
  - genewitch 3y ago
    Ubuntu resources are practically (in practice) useless. They change directions too much. Fixes that worked in ubuntu 18 won't work in 22, because they changed too much. Best case the old fixes do nothing. Worst case, you have a non-functioning system unless you have a long-suffering friend that is willing to help you. Ubuntu has the windows-itis, change for change's sake. I can't even say i like Ubuntu Server, but i'm regularly forced to interact with it because universities output stuff that "works on ubuntu, just copy and paste these lines!", where ubuntu doesn't update certain packages so you end up with old versions of stuff that works reliably until the next "tick" of an even year, when everything will break again. Windows-itis also implies that there's money in "knowing" ubuntu, because you have to keep up with their new ideas in order to be effective. I'm less than a year away from just switching to BSD, sooner if gentoo decides to do away with openRC.
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      > universities output stuff that "works on ubuntu, just copy and paste these lines!" Well that's the value in it. There's never going to be a perfect system, just good enough. Until I conceded to that, I was using FreeBSD and enjoying the lack of systemd while I struggled to make random packages work. My servers do run Ubuntu Server now.
javajosh 3y ago
> I'd probably pick Linux on my primary PC nowadays if I didn't already have a Mac. Just do it! I bought a Framework laptop and, because I forgot to buy an OS with it, decided "what the hell" and installed Ubuntu. I figured I could always install something else if it didn't work out. And it's actually been pretty good! In some ways better, in some ways worse than macOS (my main OS) and Windows (my gaming pc OS). It is actually quite nice to run the same OS as my server(s) on my laptop - it means I can use the same knowledge in two places.
kibwen 3y ago
The irony here is that the line used to be "Linux is only free if your time has no value", but with all the junk you need to remove from Windows to make it usable, we could say "Windows is only $140 if your time has no value". (MacOS is no saint either, I vivdly remember the frustration of having to run random system commands taken off the internet to try in vain to get "smart sleep" to work. If I'm going to have to futz with my system regardless, I'll just use Linux.)
- hot_gril 3y ago
  More like $0 (I ain't registering it), but still not worth.
- NovaDudely 3y ago
  I have an old 2010 Mac Mini that I wanted to sell on, figured I would install it back to the base OS (was a Linux box for a very long time) and then see what I could get on Ebay. The horrors or trying to get that thing reset without an Apple account! I gave up after a few hours and it is just sitting as back up in case I blow away an install and need a machine to get a disc image from.
NovaDudely 3y ago
I use Win 10 in the work place, it is - fine - once you spend the hour or two to lock it down. Ignoring the privacy issues. But the joy of having a fresh install of something like Linux Mint (or Kubuntu)and having nothing to lock down is so refreshing. It is like stepping back into the simplicity of Window XP but knowing it is up to date with current technology requirements.

NotYourLawyer 3y ago

> Forced me to make a Microsoft online account They actually don’t quite force this. They just make it very difficult to find the option to use a local account instead. (Unless they’ve changed things for the worse since last time I installed windows. Very possible!)

hot_gril 3y ago
I remember it being hard before but still having the button hidden somewhere. This time I looked for it and didn't see it. Maybe if I didn't connect it to wifi at all, it would've let me do it. I originally connected cause I figured there'd be OTA updates and wasn't about to restart the whole process. Also, the entire reason I was even doing 10 instead of 7 is this laptop came with 10.
tredre3 3y ago
On W10 you only get the option to create a local account if your network is disconnected, and only after multiple screens of insistence. A normal person being asked to connect to wifi during setup will do so and never have the option to not create a MS account. So it may not be impossible to create an offline account, but for all intents and purposes they do force your hand. On W11 you have to resort to more esoteric tricks, you can't actually complete setup normally without network and a ms account.
- Strom 3y ago
  > On W11 you have to resort to more esoteric tricks, you can't actually complete setup normally without network and a ms account. Maybe with the latest images, but I have an original W11 RTM image that installs just fine without network and a MS account.
  - LeoPanthera 3y ago
    Probably you have the "Pro" version, which allows this. The Home version does not.
  - star-glider 3y ago
    Correct: with the latest images, W11 will not under any circumstances allow you to avoid creating an MS account. It will insist you go online and halt the installer until you do. Rufus (https://rufus.ie/en/ https://rufus.ie/en/) offers an option to revert fix this, but you still have to ensure that you keep wifi disconnected and ethernet unplugged during install.
    - mentalpiracy 3y ago
      Actually yes it will - at least as of last weekend. During OOBE setup, after connecting to Ethernet or Wi-Fi, you must select “join a work or school domain.” I got tripped up by this too because I was insistent on not connecting it to the internet during setup, but the local account only switch had moved since I last checked up on it. It will still ask you three or four times ARE YOU SURE you don’t want to sign in to a Microsoft account. But at least you can still avoid it for the moment.
      - kup0 3y ago
        Probably only for Pro edition, not Home
        hypercube33 3y ago
        I'm fairly sure if you try to login with f@you.com it'll try to log you in and fail a few times and let you make an account.
hospitalJail 3y ago
Isnt this a dark pattern. I think you are apologizing for them if you say it wasnt forced. It sure feels forced.
- NotYourLawyer 3y ago
  Oh it’s a dark pattern for sure, and it’s really shitty. I’m not apologizing at all, just putting a comment out there to let people know that it’s actually possible to do what you’re trying to do.
Liquidor 3y ago
It's changed for the worse :( I had to help my grandma get her new laptop up and running for the first time, with Windows 11, and it got to the account screen and there were no hidden/vague options to skip or go local. I assume this is because they detected an internet connection. She literally had to get an MS account which apparently didn't work because she already had one from the last laptop. MS wanted to send her a recovery code to her email... Which she couldn't access because no computer. Oh and the amount of opt-in screens after that? 10+ screens. No joke. It's insane. There's no way she would be able to use her new laptop if she didn't get 2 hours of help.
- omniglottal 3y ago
  Correction: those were opt-out screens.

eulers_secret 3y ago

I literally reinstalled win10 yesterday and you’re right on. I couldn’t even install due to “a media driver your computer needs is missing” with no further info and no workaround. This was after mbr2gpt.exe failed and gave no information on why and every online resource was SEO crap without any info on fixing it. I eventually used Ventoy, it works on Linux and solved my problems immediately. It also forces the win installer to think it’s offline to avoid the dark pattern of online-“only” accounts. Then it was loaded with adverts and other horseshit. Seriously degraded experience. All of this because when I was trying to play a game pass game the play button just did nothing. No logs, no info, nothing. The online help was pretty good, but removing/resetting/reinstalling all game related software did nothing. Real pain when there’s no feedback.

graypegg 3y ago
> A media driver your computer needs is missing Oh how I remember the days of installing proprietary media codecs on Ubunt-… oh wait we’re talking about Windows? In 2023?
hot_gril 3y ago
> every online resource was SEO crap without any info on fixing it Man, searching anything related to Microsoft software is an instant trip down scam lane. It's not their fault even. Part of me is glad the majority aren't using Macs and bringing that over here.
- Clamchop 3y ago
  It's a little bit their fault. They host forums but appear not to tend to them. There's endless trash there from external "experts" that rarely engage with the specific problem and have no particular advice beyond sfc /scannow. Good troubleshooting advice can be found but good gravy is it hard to dig up.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    I've seen those forums, and they're the worst. Idk why those "experts" are spending so much deliberate time giving people wrong advice.

bborud 3y ago

I bought a cheap laptop to run some industrial automation software and i was shocked at how bad Windows still is. I used to dislike Windows for being slow, stupid and buggy. Instead of addressing quality they just make the OS more creepy.

NovaDudely 3y ago
All we really want is Windows 2000 with modern security updates and drivers. Instead we get this non-sense!

slaymaker1907 3y ago

You can use a local account, but it’s really hidden away (you have to use command prompt at setup time). I had to do this because my WiFi requires a browser to setup and my Ethernet had missing drivers.

belter 3y ago

In the unfortunate scenarios, where you need to use a Windows Install and or a VM never start without running through something like this: https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater WARNING: Use at your own risk, no guarantees. Personally never broke anything for me.

angry_moose 3y ago
I tried Blackbird (similar idea) a couple times on my Surface and it hosed the install twice. I'd still make it to desktop but it was a barely usable mess, and the "restore" functionality didn't fix it. I've been pretty leery of them ever since - definitely don't try it on a critical machine, and you're really at the mercy of Microsoft changing something every update. Definitely "use at your own risk" territory. https://www.getblackbird.net/ https://www.getblackbird.net/
akikoo 3y ago
PS > Get-AppxPackage -allusers | Where-Object {$_.name -notlike "store" -and $_.name -notlike "linux" -and $_.name -notlike "ubuntu"} | Remove-AppxPackage PS > Get-AppxprovisionedPackage -online | Where-Object {$_.name -notlike "store" -and $_.name -notlike "linux" -and $_.name -notlike "ubuntu"} | Remove-AppxprovisionedPackage -online

speeder 3y ago

When I was finally forced to ditch Win7 due to lack of drivers, I installed (alongside Linux, that I've been using for years), a modified Win10 with all the telemetry crap and other stuff removed. My parents have unmodified Win10 and that thing just annoys me to no end, ads, resetting settings after update, etc... Including some behaviour that caused revenue loss in my parents company.

deelowe 3y ago

Is pass-through good enough on modern hardware where I can just run a windows VM for gaming and then shutdown windows when I'm done? This would be the ideal scenario for me. I applaud Valve's efforts with proton, but I think Microsoft will start pushing back. I bet starfield will be very difficult to run well in Linux, for example.

genewitch 3y ago
yes, with vfio. I've had a windows 10 in a VM on my "main desktop" for nearly 3 years now. Gentoo gets two screens and an "ok" GPU, windows gets the beefier GPU and its own screen. I use qemu, there may be other ways to do it. The linux machine can't "see" the other GPU or screen(s). if you want to do this, there are a couple of gotchas. One i'd recommend bearing in mind is not using identical cards. Either two vendors or two different types of cards (like a 1060 and a 1070). This makes it easier to stub the windows card and also write/edit the scripts (which are probably searchable on goog with "vfio-bind"). The second is one that i lost the information about, but if it affects you, it should be possible to dig up the info. Some games get micro-stuttering or stuttering when running with vfio under qemu; the fix can be an application that applies settings on windows or editing the windows registry. All that aside, it works fine. The audio latency is minimal, but if you have a machine with more than 24 PCIe lanes, you can just dedicate an entire USB PCI card to windows, passing that through and plugging all the windows related hardware through that. I think Linus (LTT) mentioned doing something like this, virtualizing even multiple windows machines on a single machine with the threadripper (32-64 lanes) and Epyc (64, 96, or 128 lanes) - having a dedicated USB and GPU for each virtualized desktop. Nice.
- intelVISA 3y ago
  Fwiw the stuttering fix you describe is likely moving from IRQ to MSI, it's common to edit the passed-through PCI device in regedit to use MSI (message signalled interrupts) instead.
  - genewitch 3y ago
    Yes, that's what it was. And i just remember the arch wiki had something about it back when i set it up, but it was[0] incomplete - it fixed most of the issues i had with my setup, but not the MSI (i think) stuff. The site that did have the correct information and possibly even a windows download link was light grey text on a black background, and otherwise a very minimal site. I had it bookmarked on firefox on an old PC, and for some reason firefox loves deleting history/bookmarks that are older than some age. I've never bothered to track it down and it bites me every couple of years when i try to find/remember information just like this. Technology, it's so advanced. [0] it may be more complete now. I probably wouldn't do this again myself; but at the time i had been "selling" this service (qemu/xen virtualization of PCI cards) for linux on linux for over a decade, so it was something i already knew enough about to stumble through - windows on linux.

yonatan8070 3y ago

Pro tip: never give Windows internet access during setup. Windows 11 will not let you continue without an online account unless you use a tool like Ventoy which automatically bypasses it

princevegeta89 3y ago
Not fully true. There is a way to open command prompt and skip the account login and the entire setup https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-11-without-microsoft-account https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-11-witho...
- NayamAmarshe 3y ago
  How kind of Microsoft to allow us to skip such a critical step using command prompt.
  - princevegeta89 3y ago
    I bet my ass it was originally included for OEM and hardware manufacturers
- yonatan8070 3y ago
  I updated my comment, thanks for the correction!

beodbdodbsk 3y ago

the only difference for osx is that apple leaves that data collection to when you try to download security updates for your apps. Microsoft at least let us get security updates without accounts aftet we dodge all that during install. apple doesn't. login or get out.

hot_gril 3y ago
You don't need an account to update your OS, and you don't need to download apps from the Mac App Store (I never do).

NayamAmarshe 3y ago

> and never felt Linux was a worthwhile alternative on desktop ZorinOS (https://zorin.com/os https://zorin.com/os) can hopefully change your perspective.

hot_gril 3y ago
I've tried em all. It's not that I need a more user-friendly DE like Zorin's, it's more that the Linux kernel lacks broad support. One small but kinda important example is how simply watching Netflix requires workarounds and won't run above 1080p. Zoom and Discord also have caveats. And hardware peripherals are always questionable with Linux, whereas they'll get 0 stars if they don't 100% work with Windows (even if it's Windows's fault). Also, random other users are probably better off with Ubuntu than Zorin purely because that's what more people use and you can actually Google how to do stuff in it. Even a lot of Zorin questions will link to Ubuntu tutorials.
- genewitch 3y ago
  Ubuntu resources are practically (in practice) useless. They change directions too much. Fixes that worked in ubuntu 18 won't work in 22, because they changed too much. Best case the old fixes do nothing. Worst case, you have a non-functioning system unless you have a long-suffering friend that is willing to help you. Ubuntu has the windows-itis, change for change's sake. I can't even say i like Ubuntu Server, but i'm regularly forced to interact with it because universities output stuff that "works on ubuntu, just copy and paste these lines!", where ubuntu doesn't update certain packages so you end up with old versions of stuff that works reliably until the next "tick" of an even year, when everything will break again. Windows-itis also implies that there's money in "knowing" ubuntu, because you have to keep up with their new ideas in order to be effective. I'm less than a year away from just switching to BSD, sooner if gentoo decides to do away with openRC.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    > universities output stuff that "works on ubuntu, just copy and paste these lines!" Well that's the value in it. There's never going to be a perfect system, just good enough. Until I conceded to that, I was using FreeBSD and enjoying the lack of systemd while I struggled to make random packages work. My servers do run Ubuntu Server now.

javajosh 3y ago

> I'd probably pick Linux on my primary PC nowadays if I didn't already have a Mac. Just do it! I bought a Framework laptop and, because I forgot to buy an OS with it, decided "what the hell" and installed Ubuntu. I figured I could always install something else if it didn't work out. And it's actually been pretty good! In some ways better, in some ways worse than macOS (my main OS) and Windows (my gaming pc OS). It is actually quite nice to run the same OS as my server(s) on my laptop - it means I can use the same knowledge in two places.

kibwen 3y ago

The irony here is that the line used to be "Linux is only free if your time has no value", but with all the junk you need to remove from Windows to make it usable, we could say "Windows is only $140 if your time has no value". (MacOS is no saint either, I vivdly remember the frustration of having to run random system commands taken off the internet to try in vain to get "smart sleep" to work. If I'm going to have to futz with my system regardless, I'll just use Linux.)

hot_gril 3y ago
More like $0 (I ain't registering it), but still not worth.
NovaDudely 3y ago
I have an old 2010 Mac Mini that I wanted to sell on, figured I would install it back to the base OS (was a Linux box for a very long time) and then see what I could get on Ebay. The horrors or trying to get that thing reset without an Apple account! I gave up after a few hours and it is just sitting as back up in case I blow away an install and need a machine to get a disc image from.

NovaDudely 3y ago

I use Win 10 in the work place, it is - fine - once you spend the hour or two to lock it down. Ignoring the privacy issues. But the joy of having a fresh install of something like Linux Mint (or Kubuntu)and having nothing to lock down is so refreshing. It is like stepping back into the simplicity of Window XP but knowing it is up to date with current technology requirements.