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> Jehovah's Witnesses do, are they a hate group? Environmentalists? Libertarians? Socialist organizations? Affirming the Consequent fallacy. I'm saying "If A

> Jehovah's Witnesses do, are they a hate group? Environmentalists? Libertarians? Socialist organizations? Affirming the Consequent fallacy. I'm saying "If A then B", at no point have I claimed "If B therefore A". Hate Groups spread themselves across the internet and real life. (IE: If Hategroup, then spread). At no point I (or the article) claimed "If spreading therefore Hategroup". ---------------- If some group of KKK members meet up in some basement secretly and don't plan on spreading themselves, then I'm basically cool with them. I don't like their views but whatever, I know I can't convince them or otherwise change their viewpoints. But if they're an advocacy group and try to grow, then yes I'm much more concerned about it.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
Your response to this: > What is a hate organization? Was this: > Hate-based, terrorist, and criminal organizations attempt to use online platforms to spread their ideology, recruit new members, and coordinate existing members (1).* The point is that "attempt[ing] to use online platforms to spread their ideology, recruit new members, and coordinate existing members" is in no way exclusive to "hate organizations" so that can't be how you identify them. Then you quoted a definition of hate speech from Facebook. But even putting aside the problems with "direct attack against people... on the basis of protected characteristics", that doesn't get you a definition of hate organizations. Under this definition a feminist who advocates the killing of men is engaged in hate speech since sex is a protected characteristic. Does it satisfy you that once that has happened, feminists would be classified as a hate organization? I don't like that outcome, but if you don't like it either then you need a better definition.
- dragontamer 3y ago
  Yes. When you omnislash posts and read them line-by-line, they don't make sense. That's your problem, not mine. ------------- But whatever, I'll try to focus on your more legitimate posts and push this (already flagged /banned) discussion towards something that resembles a worthy discussion. > Dose it satisfy you that once that has happened, feminists would be classified as a hate organization? You've confused ideology with groups and organizations. The Nazis can be identified as a Hate Group. They followed the Fascist ideology (among many other ideologies). Planned Parenthood can be identified as a group. They don't seem to be a "hate group" however. They follow the feminist ideology (among many other ideologies). If hypothetically, Planned Parenthood as a group (or if their leaders) decided that killing men was part of their explicit group focus, then yes I'd be cool with calling them a hate group. ----------- EDIT: Lets cut to the chase. Do you want to call #BLM or #MeToo a hate group?
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > The Nazis can be identified as a Hate Group. They followed the Fascist ideology (among many other ideologies). But the Nazis, as an organization, no longer exist. They used to control a country and have a government. Nazi ideology may still exist but the Furher is dead. > Planned Parenthood can be identified as a group. They don't seem to be a "hate group" however. So this is the other problem. If you want to claim they're a hate group you point to age as a protected class, and then you end up with everyone shouting at each other because whether that's true or not turns on the very point of contention. In particular, you now have to make a censorship decision where the "accused hate group" only doesn't get censored if the decisionmaker agrees with their ideology. That's... bad. > Lets cut to the chase. Do you want to call #BLM or #MeToo a hate group? I want not to have censorship, and I find a good way of doing this is to insist that censorship decisions be made on principled basis. Because when people realize that the rules they're proposing would also be applied to people they like, they stop liking those rules.
    - dragontamer 3y ago
      > If you want to claim they're a hate group you point to age as a protected class, and then you end up with everyone shouting at each other because whether that's true or not turns on the very point of contention. Yes, people make bullshit troll arguments all the time. So cut through the trolling and reach the meat of the discussion. Don't fall for the bait. If you really want to call Planned Parenthood a hate group, go on ahead. I don't think you'll get very far. But you're using it as a hypothetical false argument trying to prove a point, rather than relying upon a real life argument or real life example. As I said before, I know you're trying to talk about a real situation. So try me. Who are you actually trying to talk about? This topic is [flagged] at this point so I don't think too many people are visiting here anyway.
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        > If you really want to call Planned Parenthood a hate group, go on ahead. I don't think you'll get very far. That depends on who you're trying to get very far with. If it's pro-choice coastal elites, obviously not. But suppose the person making the decision is pro-life. > Who are you actually trying to talk about? It's not about any group in particular. It's about what happens when you open this can of worms. Actual formal hierarchical "hate organizations" are basically dead. But there are a lot of unstructured collections of people with shared goals and in each of those groups there are extremists and people with mental illness and teenagers who think it makes them big to threaten someone else. It's no difficulty to find instances of bad behavior. But group-level enforcement is just playing into tribalism. There is a reason collective punishment is a violation of the Geneva Conventions. And there is no reason to think censorship will ever end any differently than it always does, with whatever group is in charge of censorship decisions imputing them with whatever ideological biases they may hold.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

Your response to this: > What is a hate organization? Was this: > Hate-based, terrorist, and criminal organizations attempt to use online platforms to spread their ideology, recruit new members, and coordinate existing members (1).* The point is that "attempt[ing] to use online platforms to spread their ideology, recruit new members, and coordinate existing members" is in no way exclusive to "hate organizations" so that can't be how you identify them. Then you quoted a definition of hate speech from Facebook. But even putting aside the problems with "direct attack against people... on the basis of protected characteristics", that doesn't get you a definition of hate organizations. Under this definition a feminist who advocates the killing of men is engaged in hate speech since sex is a protected characteristic. Does it satisfy you that once that has happened, feminists would be classified as a hate organization? I don't like that outcome, but if you don't like it either then you need a better definition.

dragontamer 3y ago
Yes. When you omnislash posts and read them line-by-line, they don't make sense. That's your problem, not mine. ------------- But whatever, I'll try to focus on your more legitimate posts and push this (already flagged /banned) discussion towards something that resembles a worthy discussion. > Dose it satisfy you that once that has happened, feminists would be classified as a hate organization? You've confused ideology with groups and organizations. The Nazis can be identified as a Hate Group. They followed the Fascist ideology (among many other ideologies). Planned Parenthood can be identified as a group. They don't seem to be a "hate group" however. They follow the feminist ideology (among many other ideologies). If hypothetically, Planned Parenthood as a group (or if their leaders) decided that killing men was part of their explicit group focus, then yes I'd be cool with calling them a hate group. ----------- EDIT: Lets cut to the chase. Do you want to call #BLM or #MeToo a hate group?
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > The Nazis can be identified as a Hate Group. They followed the Fascist ideology (among many other ideologies). But the Nazis, as an organization, no longer exist. They used to control a country and have a government. Nazi ideology may still exist but the Furher is dead. > Planned Parenthood can be identified as a group. They don't seem to be a "hate group" however. So this is the other problem. If you want to claim they're a hate group you point to age as a protected class, and then you end up with everyone shouting at each other because whether that's true or not turns on the very point of contention. In particular, you now have to make a censorship decision where the "accused hate group" only doesn't get censored if the decisionmaker agrees with their ideology. That's... bad. > Lets cut to the chase. Do you want to call #BLM or #MeToo a hate group? I want not to have censorship, and I find a good way of doing this is to insist that censorship decisions be made on principled basis. Because when people realize that the rules they're proposing would also be applied to people they like, they stop liking those rules.
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    > If you want to claim they're a hate group you point to age as a protected class, and then you end up with everyone shouting at each other because whether that's true or not turns on the very point of contention. Yes, people make bullshit troll arguments all the time. So cut through the trolling and reach the meat of the discussion. Don't fall for the bait. If you really want to call Planned Parenthood a hate group, go on ahead. I don't think you'll get very far. But you're using it as a hypothetical false argument trying to prove a point, rather than relying upon a real life argument or real life example. As I said before, I know you're trying to talk about a real situation. So try me. Who are you actually trying to talk about? This topic is [flagged] at this point so I don't think too many people are visiting here anyway.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      > If you really want to call Planned Parenthood a hate group, go on ahead. I don't think you'll get very far. That depends on who you're trying to get very far with. If it's pro-choice coastal elites, obviously not. But suppose the person making the decision is pro-life. > Who are you actually trying to talk about? It's not about any group in particular. It's about what happens when you open this can of worms. Actual formal hierarchical "hate organizations" are basically dead. But there are a lot of unstructured collections of people with shared goals and in each of those groups there are extremists and people with mental illness and teenagers who think it makes them big to threaten someone else. It's no difficulty to find instances of bad behavior. But group-level enforcement is just playing into tribalism. There is a reason collective punishment is a violation of the Geneva Conventions. And there is no reason to think censorship will ever end any differently than it always does, with whatever group is in charge of censorship decisions imputing them with whatever ideological biases they may hold.