5 ms·

Lascivious pictures of clothed children count as CSAM in many jurisdictions. Free speech is fine but did they not have lawyers until 2015?

WindyLakeReturn 3y ago
At the time reddit was not some unknown back corner of the internet and had already begun working with law enforcement to enforce anti-CSAM laws due to material being treaded in private messages and private subreddits. That it took a media exposure take down the specific subreddit indicated that it was likely on the legal side of the line, through it was going close enough to the line to make others uncomfortable. If the material was actually illegal, wouldn't it have made reddit the largest clear-net site containing CSAM? In such a case, I find it hard to conceive that media exposure and not legal actions is why led to it shutting down, and with no admins being arrested it seems the most reasonable assumption left is that it was on the technically legal side. This would likely be like the use of underage subjects in nudist art, painted, drawn, or photographed. Such art is generally not considered pornographic and are legally protected, and some even displayed in museums and the like, yet websites will still ban the material to not have any relationship to it and to not have users trying to push the boundary. I'm speaking to the extent that rules are enforced, many websites have issues with enforcing rules in general due to the amount of user generated content being much larger than the amount of moderation available, so there will be something slipping through moderation from time to time.
- pr0zac 3y ago
  I mean yeah all that, but on the other hand, the subreddit was literally called r/jailbait.
Zak 3y ago
They didn't have image or video hosting at the time, just links and comments. Their legal exposure was pretty limited.
tredre3 3y ago
Can you give us one example of a jurisdiction where a photo of a teenager in bikini would count as CSAM?
- throwaway17_17 3y ago
  * Note: This IS NOT Legal Advice * Most states in the US could use a photo of a teenager in a bikini as enough 'evidence' to bring charges of Possession of Pornography involving a Juvenile, depending on what the actual photo depicts. Whether the contents of the image could be found to substantiate a conviction for the charge would be a trial/appeals issue. Nudity is not required for an image to be considered CSAM in most US states (or at the federal level), there are also Federal precedents that make cartoon depictions of under-aged characters count as CSAM.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
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Mordisquitos 3y ago
[flagged]
- dymk 3y ago
  No. CP is a term used by 4chan and people unfamiliar with the topic. The detection, prevention, and enforcement community uses the term CSAM.
  - pseudalopex 3y ago
    Lawyers and courts say child pornography because laws are not restricted to sexual abuse material. Drawn child pornography is illegal in many places for example.
    - hattmall 3y ago
      How do they determine the age of a person depicted in a drawing?
      - pseudalopex 3y ago
        Appearing under a certain age is enough.
      - numpad0 3y ago
        It’s a witch hunt. Age doesn’t matter. They might say it’s not, it is.
  - philjohn 3y ago
    For important reasons. Also why "revenge porn" is now referred to as non-consensual intimate imagery.
  - bamfly 3y ago
    It's the only term I'd ever seen for it, in any context, until the last couple years. And I'm not a 4channer. Pretty sure it's just another euphemism-treadmill thing. (not that I mind in this case, I think the new term's fine, and certainly not worth fighting over)
Quarrelsome 3y ago
I thought part of the reason the US is so blessed with a thriving startup community is the light-touch the law has towards its startups. For example; didn't the billion dollar acquisition YouTube gain a lot of its initial growth through copyright infringement?
Ajedi32 3y ago
This is partly why I now prefer the term "free exchange of ideas" over "freedom of speech". I believe it more closely captures the essence of what makes free speech worth protecting, while also conveniently excluding stuff like this (among other things, like spam or antisocial behavior).
- FormerBandmate 3y ago
  Freedom of speech is a legal concept that clearly doesn't cover CSAM. Free speech is a principle but it also doesn't cover CSAM. Fire in a crowded theater doesn't actually work as a legal defense but obscenity does
  - Ajedi32 3y ago
    That's another reason I prefer the term "free exchange of ideas"; by using different wording it helps avoid the confusion created by people conflating the general principal of such freedoms with any specific legal provisions that exist in the U.S. constitution. (Though I agree in this case my wording is in agreement with how the courts define "freedom of speech" in practice.)
  - thakoppno 3y ago
    > Fire in a crowded theater doesn't actually work as a legal defense It may actually be a defense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_the...
    - lukifer 3y ago
      As discussed ITA, that case was later overturned; and it’s worth remembering that its origin was as an analogy to justify criminalizing pamphleteering against the draft [0] (one could not imagine a more salient example of “political speech”) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States
- ilyt 3y ago
  Well, it's freedom of speech, not freedom of pics

WindyLakeReturn 3y ago

At the time reddit was not some unknown back corner of the internet and had already begun working with law enforcement to enforce anti-CSAM laws due to material being treaded in private messages and private subreddits. That it took a media exposure take down the specific subreddit indicated that it was likely on the legal side of the line, through it was going close enough to the line to make others uncomfortable. If the material was actually illegal, wouldn't it have made reddit the largest clear-net site containing CSAM? In such a case, I find it hard to conceive that media exposure and not legal actions is why led to it shutting down, and with no admins being arrested it seems the most reasonable assumption left is that it was on the technically legal side. This would likely be like the use of underage subjects in nudist art, painted, drawn, or photographed. Such art is generally not considered pornographic and are legally protected, and some even displayed in museums and the like, yet websites will still ban the material to not have any relationship to it and to not have users trying to push the boundary. I'm speaking to the extent that rules are enforced, many websites have issues with enforcing rules in general due to the amount of user generated content being much larger than the amount of moderation available, so there will be something slipping through moderation from time to time.

pr0zac 3y ago
I mean yeah all that, but on the other hand, the subreddit was literally called r/jailbait.

Zak 3y ago

They didn't have image or video hosting at the time, just links and comments. Their legal exposure was pretty limited.

tredre3 3y ago

Can you give us one example of a jurisdiction where a photo of a teenager in bikini would count as CSAM?

throwaway17_17 3y ago
* Note: This IS NOT Legal Advice * Most states in the US could use a photo of a teenager in a bikini as enough 'evidence' to bring charges of Possession of Pornography involving a Juvenile, depending on what the actual photo depicts. Whether the contents of the image could be found to substantiate a conviction for the charge would be a trial/appeals issue. Nudity is not required for an image to be considered CSAM in most US states (or at the federal level), there are also Federal precedents that make cartoon depictions of under-aged characters count as CSAM.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Mordisquitos 3y ago

[flagged]

dymk 3y ago
No. CP is a term used by 4chan and people unfamiliar with the topic. The detection, prevention, and enforcement community uses the term CSAM.
- pseudalopex 3y ago
  Lawyers and courts say child pornography because laws are not restricted to sexual abuse material. Drawn child pornography is illegal in many places for example.
  - hattmall 3y ago
    How do they determine the age of a person depicted in a drawing?
    - pseudalopex 3y ago
      Appearing under a certain age is enough.
    - numpad0 3y ago
      It’s a witch hunt. Age doesn’t matter. They might say it’s not, it is.
- philjohn 3y ago
  For important reasons. Also why "revenge porn" is now referred to as non-consensual intimate imagery.
- bamfly 3y ago
  It's the only term I'd ever seen for it, in any context, until the last couple years. And I'm not a 4channer. Pretty sure it's just another euphemism-treadmill thing. (not that I mind in this case, I think the new term's fine, and certainly not worth fighting over)

Quarrelsome 3y ago

I thought part of the reason the US is so blessed with a thriving startup community is the light-touch the law has towards its startups. For example; didn't the billion dollar acquisition YouTube gain a lot of its initial growth through copyright infringement?

Ajedi32 3y ago

This is partly why I now prefer the term "free exchange of ideas" over "freedom of speech". I believe it more closely captures the essence of what makes free speech worth protecting, while also conveniently excluding stuff like this (among other things, like spam or antisocial behavior).

FormerBandmate 3y ago
Freedom of speech is a legal concept that clearly doesn't cover CSAM. Free speech is a principle but it also doesn't cover CSAM. Fire in a crowded theater doesn't actually work as a legal defense but obscenity does
- Ajedi32 3y ago
  That's another reason I prefer the term "free exchange of ideas"; by using different wording it helps avoid the confusion created by people conflating the general principal of such freedoms with any specific legal provisions that exist in the U.S. constitution. (Though I agree in this case my wording is in agreement with how the courts define "freedom of speech" in practice.)
- thakoppno 3y ago
  > Fire in a crowded theater doesn't actually work as a legal defense It may actually be a defense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_the...
  - lukifer 3y ago
    As discussed ITA, that case was later overturned; and it’s worth remembering that its origin was as an analogy to justify criminalizing pamphleteering against the draft [0] (one could not imagine a more salient example of “political speech”) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States
ilyt 3y ago
Well, it's freedom of speech, not freedom of pics