13 ms·

Reddit goes down fully as thousands of subreddits protest API changes

140 points by mikece 3y ago

openthc 3y ago
Not fully (ie: 100%); since folk were at least getting the skeleton of the pages and other parts did still work -- at least a little. It feels like a core-service outage but not 100% dead.
- mynameisvlad 3y ago
  It's a blog catered to a non-technical audience, so I'd say it's fine as is. Our definition of "fully" is based on the technical interpretation of the word, while to a random passerby it'd be based on the result: that you can't load any posts, including from communities that aren't blacked out.
elif 3y ago
Reddit is the perfect example of "why we can't have nice things because every company aspires to be Facebook" It seems no company is happy with being the virally adored single product little niche 50 employee powerhouse. It's so much sexier to bloat the org and then try to justify the economics afterward.
- strangattractor 3y ago
  Looks like the "Freemium" business model has it's drawbacks. Especially when you want to make more money:) They are probably looking to sell and buyers are balking.
- USB5 3y ago
  [dead]
- xyst 3y ago
  Vulture capital firms don’t like boutique companies to stay boutique after acquisition. Got to get them to IPO asap
  - TremendousJudge 3y ago
    Isn't reddit on venture capital since pretty much the start?
    - Melting_Harps 3y ago
      Yes, 2005 [0]. But the point remains, that regardless of it's thin veneer of being the funding source of disrupters what VC really seeks is to use the stock market chicanery that major banks who underwrite FB do in order to rig the game in the favour for an obscene profitable exit: hence why they were allowed to buy pre-market in the case of FB. Or my favorite from the pandemic: Doordash. wherein Softbank incurred so much loss after several years to consuldate market share in this stupid race to the bottom and had to cash in on the market being flooded with cheap money during COVID and getting that IPO to get maximum ROI from an otherwise terrible business model whose understanding of last mile logistics was incredibly poor to say the least, and had no problem exploiting its contractor model labour force or taking a large sum from it's restaurant owner partners. Seriously can we just admit VC is mainly just banksters trying to do what they always done in New York or in London in the Valley, and other tech cities? 0: https://www.crunchbase.com/funding_round/reddit-series-unknown--efe1e2d6 https://www.crunchbase.com/funding_round/reddit-series-unkno...
  - johannes1234321 3y ago
    The question is: Does it have to be sexy to get this funding? Why can't it be more sexy to run a sustainable small business? - I think they could run reddit profitable with less staff, which focuses on the core functionality instead of trying to grow into new markets and segments. Sure, there is a risk that some new platform disrupts that segment they are serving, but even then there is enough of a longtail to prepare an alternative and hardly those bets on expanding reach works. Let's look at Twitter as a sample case: the features which were successful, were the ones where they followed what users were doing and supported that (adding @-mentions, adding retweets, adding quote retweets, some degree of threading support, etc. all came after users used those things) most things where they added stuff their PMs invented is mostly forgotten already, but building all that cost resources.
- predictabl3 3y ago
  It's just raw capitalism and enshitification [1] which is why I'm going to be the annoying, stubborn guy and stop using proprietary platforms, especially ones where I'm inadvertently contributing to building some company's dataset or usage state that is just waiting to be later milked once the platform decides their users are too entrenched. I was on digg. I was on reddit. I was on Twitter. I was on Facebook. Every platform has its day, and I like investing in things for the long term. It's a much harder battle, but even my code is now used by MS/GitHub to train ML. It's so hostile and folks are so used to it that I feel like I have to tip-toe around saying "No, this isn't okay for me." [1] https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys (credit to mostlysimilar! thank you! I despise Medium but hadn't found this link)
  - mostlysimilar 3y ago
    Link to Doctorow's personal blog instead of yet another platform: https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys
  - throw10920 3y ago
    > It's just raw capitalism Um, no. It's Reddit being led by a corrupt CEO seeking short-term profits through an IPo(. That's not capitalism. I'm also very curious as to what you would suggest as an alternative to "capitalism".
- michaelt 3y ago
  > It seems no company is happy with being the virally adored single product little niche 50 employee powerhouse. Imagine you had such a company, someone offered you $700 million for 10% of the company valuing it at $7 billion. You don't understand why they'd value it that highly. But if you're willing to pretend you do for a few years, you can siphon off enough of that money that even your great-great-great-grandkids won't have to work a day in their lives. Would you turn down that deal? Because I doubt I could resist it.
  - parthdesai 3y ago
    Not saying I would turn down or won't turn down, but you've companies like 37signals and folks like DHH who are very happy making millions and not having a boss rather than making billions
    - user_named 3y ago
      They are the bosses
    - Justsignedup 3y ago
      37signals (basecamp now) is an exception. They didn't seek investment to get started. They are able to fully control their destiny because they don't have investors, they asked for Bezos to invest because they wanted him as an advisor, not because they needed the money. So yes DEFINITELY possible to do a 37signals, but you need starting capital. Or at least an ability to live for free for 24 months while you figure out how to make cash from your business. Most companies of that nature are started by either of the following scenarios: - Kid(s) from a middle-to-upper class family who can live off their parent/grandparent's money for a few years while they figure things out. Maybe even family throws in a few hundred grand as a gift to get you started. Definitely have collateral for a loan. - Already successful founders who have the ability to drop 200-500k into their company to get started, and already able to live off their wealth.
    - danudey 3y ago
      37signals is profitable, though. It's easy to say "I'm happy just being a small company making a good product" if you're making enough to keep the lights on, but if you don't know how to monetize your audience and user base then the pressure to accept investor money starts getting pretty high.
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  You can only burn through cash for so long.
- ilyt 3y ago
  And "we're not happy with earning just some money, we need to earn ALL the money"
- mikae1 3y ago
  Stock owners always want to see growth, growth, growth. That's why they buy stock. With growth enshittification will eventually come and people flee. Then a new cycle begins…
  - layer8 3y ago
    This is why I’ll never work for a publicly traded company.
  - cykros 3y ago
    This is mostly true, but does depend a bit. There are of course investors looking for a steady price and steady dividend (income investors, as opposed to growth). Nobody is ever annoyed when their stock goes up of course, but it isn't always the primary factor in selecting securities. That said, TECH stock investors mostly are growth investors, because the dividends are typically fairly paltry.
- BaseballPhysics 3y ago
  Don't take VC money if you don't wanna be forced to find a 10x exit for those investors. The investors want an exit, so they have to IPO. To IPO at a reasonable valuation, they need to demonstrate significant revenue potential. And to get significant revenue, they need to monetize the hell out of the userbase. You can do that through: 1. Ads--monetize your user's attention. 2. Subscriptions--monetize your user's attachment to your service. 3. Surveillance capitalism--monetize your user's data. Very few services have shown the ability to hit that 10x target with #2, and thus Reddit chose paths #1 and #3. The lesson: Once again, for those in the back row 1) if you're not paying for the product, you are the product, and 2) don't build communities on closed platforms unless you're comfortable with the potential of a rug-pull.
  - moneywoes 3y ago
    How to build a business of this size without VC money?
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      The old-fashioned way, over time. But I would question the goal of building a business this size. Why do you want to?
    - rvz 3y ago
      It's possible, Basecamp, Jetbrains, and Zoho have done so.
    - BaseballPhysics 3y ago
      Slowly. Or don't. Who decided every company must be a global blitzscaled decacorn monopoly?
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > if you're not paying for the product, you are the product The problem with this saying is that it implies that you can avoid being the product by paying for the product. But that is increasingly not true, and is a bad bet.
- Barrin92 3y ago
  >It seems no company is happy with being the virally adored single product little niche 50 employee powerhouse. There's Valve or JetBrains, which are not even niche or small but very successful that have stayed private, focused and avoided money from the public markets. But yes the software industry desperately needs a Mittelstand economy. Probably won't happen without actually breaking apart some of the platforms though. Historically breakups have increased total shareholder value so it would even be a good deal for investors. In Spain for example where Uber is regulated they're essentially just a software vendor rather than trying to capture the market. If they were just a 100 person company licensing software worldwide that sounds like a more attractive business than what they are now. It's kind of hilarious how few people even manage to benefit from the system as it is, which is mostly just VCs, managers at bloated firms and people who get rid of their stock at the right time.
inversetelecine 3y ago
They're also testing blocking mobile logins and telling users to install their app. [1][2] [1] https://www.ghacks.net/2023/06/12/reddit-is-blocking-logins-on-mobile-for-some-users-asking-them-to-use-the-official-reddit-app/ https://www.ghacks.net/2023/06/12/reddit-is-blocking-logins-... [2] it happened to me
timmg 3y ago
Is it just me, or are users trying to solve the wrong problem here? According to the CEO, Reddit is losing money. It won't survive long-term if that doesn't change. If people care about reddit and its community, it seems like that's what they should be thinking about. If an alternate client uses the API, but doesn't return any advertising (or other) revenue, that is a good reason for reddit (as a company) to change that relationship. To be clear, I'm not making a comment about how they are going about it. But destroying reddit's business is no help to anyone. Lots of people on reddit (and on here) brag about using ad-blockers. They also complain about paying for services. I mean: something's go to give. VC's won't continue to fund these free services forever. I'd rather live in a world where you view advertisements or pay a fee to use services. But I seem to be outside the norm on these things.
- dabluecaboose 3y ago
  Considering the apparent cost to Reddit for a third-party client is roughly $2-5 per user, I've seen a lot of people voice support for locking third-party apps behind reddit premium. The problem is reddit doesn't want just that, they also want to force everyone to use the app so they can monitor and monetize them there.
  - PlutoIsAPlanet 3y ago
    I don't see why they can't serve ads and track usage via the API? Make it an API policy violation to hide ads, which is reasonable.
    - kemayo 3y ago
      The fairest I can be there is that it might make their ad sales more complicated. It'd be more difficult to count "impressions" for an advertiser if you had to work out whether an ad served through the API was actually going to be shown to a user. The advertisers might also dislike the lack of control over the context their ads would be shown in. This isn't insurmountable, but it does present some challenges.
    - giantrobot 3y ago
Glench 3y ago
Are people actually leaving reddit? Or just temporarily blacking out subreddits?
- x86x87 3y ago
  Yes. I'm done. Uninstalled the app yesterday and I am not looking back.
- willis936 3y ago
  I know I uninstalled Apollo this morning. The blackout is just the mild push needed to kick the habit. I'm not interested in racking up API charges for the Apollo dev. I'm not logged in anywhere else and I won't be.
  - Glench 3y ago
    Hm interesting. That's kind of you. Would love to hear from other people as well. I just made a Chrome extension that lets you delete all your posts and comments: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/bulk-delete-reddit-posts/nbfdoajmaaohkohdnbpjakamhcaaleco?hl=en&authuser=0 https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/bulk-delete-reddit... Would love to get any feedback — I'm still working on it.
    - pcthrowaway 3y ago
      My 2 cents: it'd be really good if it lets you save all the posts to an archive before deleting them. Maybe also save some context about those posts No way I'd personally pay for increased deletions though, that seems a bit silly. Good luck though
      - theossuary 3y ago
        Agreed, I'm waiting for a GDPR request to go through before deleting my content. For anyone else looking to export before deleting - https://www.reddit.com/settings/data-request https://www.reddit.com/settings/data-request
karaterobot 3y ago
Isn't this more likely related to the CloudFlare outage, or some other technical issue? I'm not sure how subreddits going dark would bring down Reddit. The article mentions this possibility as an aside, but still ran with a headline that seems like a post hoc fallacy.
- flutas 3y ago
  Nope. Reddit admitted that it was due to the protest. > “A significant number of subreddits shifting to private caused some expected stability issues, and we’ve been working on resolving the anticipated issue,” https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/12/23758002/reddit-crashing-api-protest-subreddit-private-going-dark https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/12/23758002/reddit-crashing-...
  - karaterobot 3y ago
    Ahh, didn't know that. Thanks.
  - tuple 3y ago
    "resolving the anticipated issue" I'm amazed that they can call it "expected" and "anticipated" after it took their site down, the very definition of something unanticipated and unintended happening.
- EA-3167 3y ago
  Does Reddit use Cloudflare? I was under the impression that they don't.
  - cde-v 3y ago
    Your impression is correct. Reddit does not use Cloudflare and an employee explicitly said so in a post this morning about the cloudflare issues because people were blaming the reddit outage on it.
    - EA-3167 3y ago
dingleberry 3y ago
and then users realize they don't need reddit
- riku_iki 3y ago
  And also google. Now my google searches with +reddit term point on private discussions..
  - roncesvalles 3y ago
    Honestly Google should just acquire Reddit, re-instate 3rd party client apps' API access, boot off all the model training API users, and farm Reddit's content for its own model training. Companies like Google and Microsoft can uniquely profit from this. Microsoft can even spin it as adjacent to Xbox/Minecraft. I'd wager the single reason why this hasn't already happened is all the porn.
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
Honestly I see this as an opportunity. I'm just waiting to request a few since I have no issue with the API changes. Not that u/spez isn't handling things poorly, but those who rely on third party apps have no right to shut down the site for those of us that don't and don't care.
- shadowfoxx 3y ago
  I mean, they have as much a right as you do to not care and not do anything, right? Its clearly not just people who use third party apps but also the opinions of people who believe in more than just apathy. "They don't have the right to organize and decide on collective action" just reads like, "I'm entitled to not be inconvenienced by things I don't care about" /shrug, just my two cents.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    Sure they have a right, but their decisions based on that right are inconveniencing a ton of people. It seems a better solution would be for them to just leave, and hand over the subs to people who have no issue with the API changes and are happy to continue to moderate. I mean, if their protest works I'm all for it, but I suspect it won't, and the communities that want to keep on communing don't deserve to die because mods made a unilateral choice for everybody.
    - shadowfoxx 3y ago
      I mean, you're more than welcome to create a subreddit and start rebuilding with the members of the community who think as you do. I'd also like to point out that inconvenience is a desired feature of protest, not a bug. Why is it other peoples responsibility to not inconvenience you?
      - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
        I'm also more than welcome to just attempt to take over the existing subs, which is much more convenient for everyone involved. Inconvenience is a desired feature of the protest, but not of Reddit - at least not to this extent. > Why is it other peoples responsibility to not inconvenience you? I never claimed it was. But if people are leaving to Lemmy, then they should leave the subs to people that are fine staying on Reddit. Ultimately, they don't own the subs, Reddit does, and if Reddit is willing to reassign them, I don't see a problem with that.
redmerchant2 3y ago
I caved in and briefly decided to see the front page. It’s jarring how barren it is. Front page is filled with posts from 16 hours ago. I know a vocal dissident claimed it didn’t matter but looks like the power law is kicking in. When the 1% of creators mostly stop posting, the 90% of lurkers will have nothing to consume. It’s still up in the air how much it’ll matter but I’m cautiously optimistic.
- yanderekko 3y ago
  Give me a break. If the boycotts caused 99% of subs to close the remaining 1% would still easily have enough content to keep the front page fresh, and the algorithm could adapt smoothly. The assertion that Reddit is actually already dead at this point is wildly premature.
  - ARandumGuy 3y ago
    While I can't verify redmerchant2's claim, I could absolutely imagine that the Reddit front page algorithm can't handle a large portion of the site going dark at once. Reddit can't code for every possible situation, and it's not surprising to see weird behavior during a weird situation.
  - s_dev 3y ago
    The front page material does look startlingly less 'interesting' than it does normally. I think reddit will be die the same way 'The Simpsons' died -- we all know seasons 8-13 are the by far the most critically acclaimed and the 'soul' of the series. You could point to the next 20/30 seasons as proof of 'success' and maybe you've a point and I think the same will happen to reddit. It will probably grow for years after June 30th but it will be 'Zombie Reddit' just like 'Zombie Simpsons'. Excellent watch on the Fall of the Simpsons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk
    - yanderekko 3y ago
      >The front page material does look startlingly less 'interesting' than it does normally. Yeah, it's all a bunch of repetitive protest posts. The self-aggrandizement of activists saying "we represent the actual value-generating members of this site and we are angry" borders on delusion. Sadly, powerusers/mods that are still participating are also being subjected to various forms of harassment, which could fuel a false perception of consensus.
Eumenes 3y ago
Stunning and Brave!
reuben364 3y ago
Asking here because I can't find the the right google keywords. I see that m.reddit.com no longer works. Has it been that way for a while? EDIT: It's been redirecting to reddit.com since at least 2021
- avhon1 3y ago
  ... but i.reddit.com was turned off just two months ago https://old.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/124whzg/changelog_new_ways_to_find_communities_mod/ https://old.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/124whzg/changelog_n...
lt 3y ago
I see three perspectives on the whole thing: First, Reddit's monetization is broken by design. It never made any sense to me why they would charge for reddit gold for an ad-free experience on their website and own mobile app but not on the API. Why would they let third party apps serve their own ads and let them charge to remove them? This would be simple to fix, both technically and in the API's ToS, just serve the same ads regardless of the client. People would be upset, but ultimately I feel it would be entirely fair. But no, it doesn't seem to be a solution considered. Second, the LLM dataset issue is also attributed to the price hike. Again, I think it's fair if unpopular to charge premium for bulk data. Again, there are technical and ToS solutions for this. They could introduce exponential tiers for bulk data, restrictions on allowed usage, other things that make user-facing usage reasonable but bulk processing expensive, but then again, starting measuring api usage per client id and not per user goes against this point, just making the API extremely expensive for everyone anywhere to the point of being unusable. Third, all points seem to lead to the fact that what they really want is to kill third party apps and hope a large part of those users move to their app, for what? More tracking, tighter grip, better engagement metrics? Not sure. Even the changes to the extremely hostile mobile site now forcing some users to download the app. Really, I'd figure they'd understand their userbase better than that and how a small fraction on content producers and a even smaller fraction of power users and moderators carry the site, and pissing them off is a really bad idea. But what do I know.

140 points by mikece 3y ago

Not fully (ie: 100%); since folk were at least getting the skeleton of the pages and other parts did still work -- at least a little. It feels like a core-service outage but not 100% dead.

mynameisvlad 3y ago
It's a blog catered to a non-technical audience, so I'd say it's fine as is. Our definition of "fully" is based on the technical interpretation of the word, while to a random passerby it'd be based on the result: that you can't load any posts, including from communities that aren't blacked out.

elif 3y ago

Reddit is the perfect example of "why we can't have nice things because every company aspires to be Facebook" It seems no company is happy with being the virally adored single product little niche 50 employee powerhouse. It's so much sexier to bloat the org and then try to justify the economics afterward.

strangattractor 3y ago
Looks like the "Freemium" business model has it's drawbacks. Especially when you want to make more money:) They are probably looking to sell and buyers are balking.
USB5 3y ago
[dead]
xyst 3y ago
Vulture capital firms don’t like boutique companies to stay boutique after acquisition. Got to get them to IPO asap
- TremendousJudge 3y ago
  Isn't reddit on venture capital since pretty much the start?
  - Melting_Harps 3y ago
    Yes, 2005 [0]. But the point remains, that regardless of it's thin veneer of being the funding source of disrupters what VC really seeks is to use the stock market chicanery that major banks who underwrite FB do in order to rig the game in the favour for an obscene profitable exit: hence why they were allowed to buy pre-market in the case of FB. Or my favorite from the pandemic: Doordash. wherein Softbank incurred so much loss after several years to consuldate market share in this stupid race to the bottom and had to cash in on the market being flooded with cheap money during COVID and getting that IPO to get maximum ROI from an otherwise terrible business model whose understanding of last mile logistics was incredibly poor to say the least, and had no problem exploiting its contractor model labour force or taking a large sum from it's restaurant owner partners. Seriously can we just admit VC is mainly just banksters trying to do what they always done in New York or in London in the Valley, and other tech cities? 0: https://www.crunchbase.com/funding_round/reddit-series-unknown--efe1e2d6 https://www.crunchbase.com/funding_round/reddit-series-unkno...
- johannes1234321 3y ago
  The question is: Does it have to be sexy to get this funding? Why can't it be more sexy to run a sustainable small business? - I think they could run reddit profitable with less staff, which focuses on the core functionality instead of trying to grow into new markets and segments. Sure, there is a risk that some new platform disrupts that segment they are serving, but even then there is enough of a longtail to prepare an alternative and hardly those bets on expanding reach works. Let's look at Twitter as a sample case: the features which were successful, were the ones where they followed what users were doing and supported that (adding @-mentions, adding retweets, adding quote retweets, some degree of threading support, etc. all came after users used those things) most things where they added stuff their PMs invented is mostly forgotten already, but building all that cost resources.
predictabl3 3y ago
It's just raw capitalism and enshitification [1] which is why I'm going to be the annoying, stubborn guy and stop using proprietary platforms, especially ones where I'm inadvertently contributing to building some company's dataset or usage state that is just waiting to be later milked once the platform decides their users are too entrenched. I was on digg. I was on reddit. I was on Twitter. I was on Facebook. Every platform has its day, and I like investing in things for the long term. It's a much harder battle, but even my code is now used by MS/GitHub to train ML. It's so hostile and folks are so used to it that I feel like I have to tip-toe around saying "No, this isn't okay for me." [1] https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys (credit to mostlysimilar! thank you! I despise Medium but hadn't found this link)
- mostlysimilar 3y ago
  Link to Doctorow's personal blog instead of yet another platform: https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys
- throw10920 3y ago
  > It's just raw capitalism Um, no. It's Reddit being led by a corrupt CEO seeking short-term profits through an IPo(. That's not capitalism. I'm also very curious as to what you would suggest as an alternative to "capitalism".
michaelt 3y ago
> It seems no company is happy with being the virally adored single product little niche 50 employee powerhouse. Imagine you had such a company, someone offered you $700 million for 10% of the company valuing it at $7 billion. You don't understand why they'd value it that highly. But if you're willing to pretend you do for a few years, you can siphon off enough of that money that even your great-great-great-grandkids won't have to work a day in their lives. Would you turn down that deal? Because I doubt I could resist it.
- parthdesai 3y ago
  Not saying I would turn down or won't turn down, but you've companies like 37signals and folks like DHH who are very happy making millions and not having a boss rather than making billions
  - user_named 3y ago
    They are the bosses
  - Justsignedup 3y ago
    37signals (basecamp now) is an exception. They didn't seek investment to get started. They are able to fully control their destiny because they don't have investors, they asked for Bezos to invest because they wanted him as an advisor, not because they needed the money. So yes DEFINITELY possible to do a 37signals, but you need starting capital. Or at least an ability to live for free for 24 months while you figure out how to make cash from your business. Most companies of that nature are started by either of the following scenarios: - Kid(s) from a middle-to-upper class family who can live off their parent/grandparent's money for a few years while they figure things out. Maybe even family throws in a few hundred grand as a gift to get you started. Definitely have collateral for a loan. - Already successful founders who have the ability to drop 200-500k into their company to get started, and already able to live off their wealth.
  - danudey 3y ago
    37signals is profitable, though. It's easy to say "I'm happy just being a small company making a good product" if you're making enough to keep the lights on, but if you don't know how to monetize your audience and user base then the pressure to accept investor money starts getting pretty high.
WeylandYutani 3y ago
You can only burn through cash for so long.
ilyt 3y ago
And "we're not happy with earning just some money, we need to earn ALL the money"
mikae1 3y ago
Stock owners always want to see growth, growth, growth. That's why they buy stock. With growth enshittification will eventually come and people flee. Then a new cycle begins…
- layer8 3y ago
  This is why I’ll never work for a publicly traded company.
- cykros 3y ago
  This is mostly true, but does depend a bit. There are of course investors looking for a steady price and steady dividend (income investors, as opposed to growth). Nobody is ever annoyed when their stock goes up of course, but it isn't always the primary factor in selecting securities. That said, TECH stock investors mostly are growth investors, because the dividends are typically fairly paltry.
BaseballPhysics 3y ago
Don't take VC money if you don't wanna be forced to find a 10x exit for those investors. The investors want an exit, so they have to IPO. To IPO at a reasonable valuation, they need to demonstrate significant revenue potential. And to get significant revenue, they need to monetize the hell out of the userbase. You can do that through: 1. Ads--monetize your user's attention. 2. Subscriptions--monetize your user's attachment to your service. 3. Surveillance capitalism--monetize your user's data. Very few services have shown the ability to hit that 10x target with #2, and thus Reddit chose paths #1 and #3. The lesson: Once again, for those in the back row 1) if you're not paying for the product, you are the product, and 2) don't build communities on closed platforms unless you're comfortable with the potential of a rug-pull.
- moneywoes 3y ago
  How to build a business of this size without VC money?
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    The old-fashioned way, over time. But I would question the goal of building a business this size. Why do you want to?
  - rvz 3y ago
    It's possible, Basecamp, Jetbrains, and Zoho have done so.
  - BaseballPhysics 3y ago
    Slowly. Or don't. Who decided every company must be a global blitzscaled decacorn monopoly?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > if you're not paying for the product, you are the product The problem with this saying is that it implies that you can avoid being the product by paying for the product. But that is increasingly not true, and is a bad bet.
Barrin92 3y ago
>It seems no company is happy with being the virally adored single product little niche 50 employee powerhouse. There's Valve or JetBrains, which are not even niche or small but very successful that have stayed private, focused and avoided money from the public markets. But yes the software industry desperately needs a Mittelstand economy. Probably won't happen without actually breaking apart some of the platforms though. Historically breakups have increased total shareholder value so it would even be a good deal for investors. In Spain for example where Uber is regulated they're essentially just a software vendor rather than trying to capture the market. If they were just a 100 person company licensing software worldwide that sounds like a more attractive business than what they are now. It's kind of hilarious how few people even manage to benefit from the system as it is, which is mostly just VCs, managers at bloated firms and people who get rid of their stock at the right time.

inversetelecine 3y ago

They're also testing blocking mobile logins and telling users to install their app. [1][2] [1] https://www.ghacks.net/2023/06/12/reddit-is-blocking-logins-on-mobile-for-some-users-asking-them-to-use-the-official-reddit-app/ https://www.ghacks.net/2023/06/12/reddit-is-blocking-logins-... [2] it happened to me

timmg 3y ago

Is it just me, or are users trying to solve the wrong problem here? According to the CEO, Reddit is losing money. It won't survive long-term if that doesn't change. If people care about reddit and its community, it seems like that's what they should be thinking about. If an alternate client uses the API, but doesn't return any advertising (or other) revenue, that is a good reason for reddit (as a company) to change that relationship. To be clear, I'm not making a comment about how they are going about it. But destroying reddit's business is no help to anyone. Lots of people on reddit (and on here) brag about using ad-blockers. They also complain about paying for services. I mean: something's go to give. VC's won't continue to fund these free services forever. I'd rather live in a world where you view advertisements or pay a fee to use services. But I seem to be outside the norm on these things.

dabluecaboose 3y ago
Considering the apparent cost to Reddit for a third-party client is roughly $2-5 per user, I've seen a lot of people voice support for locking third-party apps behind reddit premium. The problem is reddit doesn't want just that, they also want to force everyone to use the app so they can monitor and monetize them there.
- PlutoIsAPlanet 3y ago
  I don't see why they can't serve ads and track usage via the API? Make it an API policy violation to hide ads, which is reasonable.
  - kemayo 3y ago
    The fairest I can be there is that it might make their ad sales more complicated. It'd be more difficult to count "impressions" for an advertiser if you had to work out whether an ad served through the API was actually going to be shown to a user. The advertisers might also dislike the lack of control over the context their ads would be shown in. This isn't insurmountable, but it does present some challenges.
  - giantrobot 3y ago

Glench 3y ago

Are people actually leaving reddit? Or just temporarily blacking out subreddits?

x86x87 3y ago
Yes. I'm done. Uninstalled the app yesterday and I am not looking back.
willis936 3y ago
I know I uninstalled Apollo this morning. The blackout is just the mild push needed to kick the habit. I'm not interested in racking up API charges for the Apollo dev. I'm not logged in anywhere else and I won't be.
- Glench 3y ago
  Hm interesting. That's kind of you. Would love to hear from other people as well. I just made a Chrome extension that lets you delete all your posts and comments: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/bulk-delete-reddit-posts/nbfdoajmaaohkohdnbpjakamhcaaleco?hl=en&authuser=0 https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/bulk-delete-reddit... Would love to get any feedback — I'm still working on it.
  - pcthrowaway 3y ago
    My 2 cents: it'd be really good if it lets you save all the posts to an archive before deleting them. Maybe also save some context about those posts No way I'd personally pay for increased deletions though, that seems a bit silly. Good luck though
    - theossuary 3y ago
      Agreed, I'm waiting for a GDPR request to go through before deleting my content. For anyone else looking to export before deleting - https://www.reddit.com/settings/data-request https://www.reddit.com/settings/data-request

karaterobot 3y ago

Isn't this more likely related to the CloudFlare outage, or some other technical issue? I'm not sure how subreddits going dark would bring down Reddit. The article mentions this possibility as an aside, but still ran with a headline that seems like a post hoc fallacy.

flutas 3y ago
Nope. Reddit admitted that it was due to the protest. > “A significant number of subreddits shifting to private caused some expected stability issues, and we’ve been working on resolving the anticipated issue,” https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/12/23758002/reddit-crashing-api-protest-subreddit-private-going-dark https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/12/23758002/reddit-crashing-...
- karaterobot 3y ago
  Ahh, didn't know that. Thanks.
- tuple 3y ago
  "resolving the anticipated issue" I'm amazed that they can call it "expected" and "anticipated" after it took their site down, the very definition of something unanticipated and unintended happening.
EA-3167 3y ago
Does Reddit use Cloudflare? I was under the impression that they don't.
- cde-v 3y ago
  Your impression is correct. Reddit does not use Cloudflare and an employee explicitly said so in a post this morning about the cloudflare issues because people were blaming the reddit outage on it.
  - EA-3167 3y ago

dingleberry 3y ago

and then users realize they don't need reddit

riku_iki 3y ago
And also google. Now my google searches with +reddit term point on private discussions..
- roncesvalles 3y ago
  Honestly Google should just acquire Reddit, re-instate 3rd party client apps' API access, boot off all the model training API users, and farm Reddit's content for its own model training. Companies like Google and Microsoft can uniquely profit from this. Microsoft can even spin it as adjacent to Xbox/Minecraft. I'd wager the single reason why this hasn't already happened is all the porn.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago

Honestly I see this as an opportunity. I'm just waiting to request a few since I have no issue with the API changes. Not that u/spez isn't handling things poorly, but those who rely on third party apps have no right to shut down the site for those of us that don't and don't care.

shadowfoxx 3y ago
I mean, they have as much a right as you do to not care and not do anything, right? Its clearly not just people who use third party apps but also the opinions of people who believe in more than just apathy. "They don't have the right to organize and decide on collective action" just reads like, "I'm entitled to not be inconvenienced by things I don't care about" /shrug, just my two cents.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  Sure they have a right, but their decisions based on that right are inconveniencing a ton of people. It seems a better solution would be for them to just leave, and hand over the subs to people who have no issue with the API changes and are happy to continue to moderate. I mean, if their protest works I'm all for it, but I suspect it won't, and the communities that want to keep on communing don't deserve to die because mods made a unilateral choice for everybody.
  - shadowfoxx 3y ago
    I mean, you're more than welcome to create a subreddit and start rebuilding with the members of the community who think as you do. I'd also like to point out that inconvenience is a desired feature of protest, not a bug. Why is it other peoples responsibility to not inconvenience you?
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      I'm also more than welcome to just attempt to take over the existing subs, which is much more convenient for everyone involved. Inconvenience is a desired feature of the protest, but not of Reddit - at least not to this extent. > Why is it other peoples responsibility to not inconvenience you? I never claimed it was. But if people are leaving to Lemmy, then they should leave the subs to people that are fine staying on Reddit. Ultimately, they don't own the subs, Reddit does, and if Reddit is willing to reassign them, I don't see a problem with that.

redmerchant2 3y ago

I caved in and briefly decided to see the front page. It’s jarring how barren it is. Front page is filled with posts from 16 hours ago. I know a vocal dissident claimed it didn’t matter but looks like the power law is kicking in. When the 1% of creators mostly stop posting, the 90% of lurkers will have nothing to consume. It’s still up in the air how much it’ll matter but I’m cautiously optimistic.

yanderekko 3y ago
Give me a break. If the boycotts caused 99% of subs to close the remaining 1% would still easily have enough content to keep the front page fresh, and the algorithm could adapt smoothly. The assertion that Reddit is actually already dead at this point is wildly premature.
- ARandumGuy 3y ago
  While I can't verify redmerchant2's claim, I could absolutely imagine that the Reddit front page algorithm can't handle a large portion of the site going dark at once. Reddit can't code for every possible situation, and it's not surprising to see weird behavior during a weird situation.
- s_dev 3y ago
  The front page material does look startlingly less 'interesting' than it does normally. I think reddit will be die the same way 'The Simpsons' died -- we all know seasons 8-13 are the by far the most critically acclaimed and the 'soul' of the series. You could point to the next 20/30 seasons as proof of 'success' and maybe you've a point and I think the same will happen to reddit. It will probably grow for years after June 30th but it will be 'Zombie Reddit' just like 'Zombie Simpsons'. Excellent watch on the Fall of the Simpsons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk
  - yanderekko 3y ago
    >The front page material does look startlingly less 'interesting' than it does normally. Yeah, it's all a bunch of repetitive protest posts. The self-aggrandizement of activists saying "we represent the actual value-generating members of this site and we are angry" borders on delusion. Sadly, powerusers/mods that are still participating are also being subjected to various forms of harassment, which could fuel a false perception of consensus.

Eumenes 3y ago

Stunning and Brave!

reuben364 3y ago

Asking here because I can't find the the right google keywords. I see that m.reddit.com no longer works. Has it been that way for a while? EDIT: It's been redirecting to reddit.com since at least 2021

avhon1 3y ago
... but i.reddit.com was turned off just two months ago https://old.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/124whzg/changelog_new_ways_to_find_communities_mod/ https://old.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/124whzg/changelog_n...

lt 3y ago

I see three perspectives on the whole thing: First, Reddit's monetization is broken by design. It never made any sense to me why they would charge for reddit gold for an ad-free experience on their website and own mobile app but not on the API. Why would they let third party apps serve their own ads and let them charge to remove them? This would be simple to fix, both technically and in the API's ToS, just serve the same ads regardless of the client. People would be upset, but ultimately I feel it would be entirely fair. But no, it doesn't seem to be a solution considered. Second, the LLM dataset issue is also attributed to the price hike. Again, I think it's fair if unpopular to charge premium for bulk data. Again, there are technical and ToS solutions for this. They could introduce exponential tiers for bulk data, restrictions on allowed usage, other things that make user-facing usage reasonable but bulk processing expensive, but then again, starting measuring api usage per client id and not per user goes against this point, just making the API extremely expensive for everyone anywhere to the point of being unusable. Third, all points seem to lead to the fact that what they really want is to kill third party apps and hope a large part of those users move to their app, for what? More tracking, tighter grip, better engagement metrics? Not sure. Even the changes to the extremely hostile mobile site now forcing some users to download the app. Really, I'd figure they'd understand their userbase better than that and how a small fraction on content producers and a even smaller fraction of power users and moderators carry the site, and pissing them off is a really bad idea. But what do I know.