11 ms·

What is a hate organization?

by andreygrehov 3y ago

kachnuv_ocasek 3y ago
> Organizations that proclaim a violent mission, engage in violence, and represent ideologies that promote hate
- omginternets 3y ago
  >represent ideologies that promote hate What's that, precisely?
  - icandoit 3y ago
    Organizations that call for violence. Harming people or the destruction of property. Specific organization would include KKK and ISIS. I would also include organizations that use terrorism to further theier ends of environmentalism and animal rights. What is your goal with this line of argument. This looks a lot like devils advocacy. Like, what good comes from someone saying: "There's actually no such thing as hate-organizations." (Something you never said).
    - catiopatio 3y ago
      Is an organization that advocates for sex-based segregation of sports a hate group? According to some people, they’re advocating for actively harming people. According to others, they’re advocating for preventing harm.
      - master-lincoln 3y ago
        I would say that can not be answered by just looking at the agenda both groups want to push. It depends on how they do it. Advocating for something is not hate
    - Veen 3y ago
      I think a lot of the negative reactions to this paper are because people don't trust corporations and academics to determine what is hateful and what is not. And why should they? It's not that anyone thinks there are no hate groups or that the tactics outlined in the paper don't work, but that such tactics are likely to be abused by people in power to silence ideological opponents.
    - omginternets 3y ago
      My goal is to suggest that so-worded, a lot of organizations that aren't akin to the KKK an ISIS can be lumped into the same category, and often are. Here's a question for you: do you consider so-called "TERFs" to be a hate-group? And here's another: what do you do with the fact that the very notion of violence is being redefined to include such things as misgendering people? So I ask you this: are you really suggesting it's unreasonable to view this kind of research with caution and circumspection?
- master-lincoln 3y ago
  Is that a logical AND between all of those? Because if it's a logical OR, butchers might fall into the first 2 categories. And the last part is not very enlightening to define a hate group as it also uses the word hate again
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dragontamer 3y ago
[flagged]
- RobotToaster 3y ago
  so a "hate organization" is a "Hate-based ... organizations"? That clears everything up.
- gunapologist99 3y ago
  > Did you not read the article at all? Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that". https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > ... organizations attempt to use online platforms to spread their ideology, recruit new members, and coordinate existing members Essentially all organizations do that, don't they? Did the article define what "hate" is?
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    > Essentially all organizations do that, don't they? Hebrews don't. Plenty of groups don't plan to expand at all actually. Groups explicitly trying to spread hate and grow is key IMO. It separates you out from many other groups.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      > Hebrews don't. Hence "essentially all" and not "all". Jehovah's Witnesses do, are they a hate group? Environmentalists? Libertarians? Socialist organizations? There are environmentalists who seriously hate people who drive cars. Like call them murderers and want them to suffer. But also, what is a group? Are feminists a group? If there exist self-described feminists who expressly advocate the killing of men, do we then take some action against anyone else who calls themselves a feminist or argues in favor of other feminist positions?
      - stirfish 3y ago
wslack 3y ago
Defined here as linked from a study footnote, for things like advocating for violence against civilians: https://transparency.fb.com/policies/community-standards/dangerous-individuals-organizations/ https://transparency.fb.com/policies/community-standards/dan...
IIAOPSW 3y ago
Well generally speaking, its a group of people organized around their shared interest in hating some other people.
IIAOPSW 3y ago
Well generally, its a group of people organized around a shared interest in hating some other group of people. Not much different from asking "what's a woodworking organization?" or "whats a criminal organization?"
flir 3y ago
One really good way to derail a discussion you're ideologically opposed to us to get in early and deflect it into a discussion about definitions. Someone's bound to fall for it. (Posted in the expectation that someone will be along soon with a bucket and mop).
stirfish 3y ago
[flagged]
- ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
  So, feminism?
icandoit 3y ago
Would you accept a definition that includes the KKK and ISIS? If the majority of an organizations public rhetoric is hate for other groups would you agree that makes them a hate organization? What is the purpose of this line of argumentation? Would you take the position that there are no such things as hate-organizations or hate-speech? The world is plainly better off with fewer organizations like the KKK and ISIS. Do you agree? That seems like as milquetoast as one can get. Are there organizations that you feel are labeled as hate-groups but are not? What hairs are we trying to split?
- megaman821 3y ago
  I kinda want to know the lines we are drawing here. Is a group advocating straight marriage a hate group? Is a group espousing all white people are racist a hate group? Also, I don't this paper is talking about the KKK or ISIS since I don't think they have a had presence on a social platform for quite a while.
- smsm42 3y ago
  Obviously not. Definition "any organization" includes KKK and ISIS, but not acceptable. Same for definition "any organization which includes men". Now, if you defined as "only KKK and ISIS"... still not clear. Which KKK? There were many of them. What if some organization is named KKK but isn't related to US racist one? What about racists that aren't holding a formal membership of KKK - are they fine (if they steer clear of ISIS too)? Giving two examples which seem obvious to you (even those aren't as simple as yoh think) is not the same as giving workable definition. Obviously also there are plenty of organizations that are labeled as hate by some people and other people disagree with it. Look up this week's controversy about SPLC for some examples, but they are in no way unique. You think of it as splitting hairs because you can't imagine how people can disagree with what you imagine to be obvious. But it's not as obvious as you think.
  - icandoit 3y ago
    > But it's not as obvious as you think. If a person or organization calls for violence or the destruction of property, they are a terrorist organization. If the reasons they give for this are based on identity they are additionally a hate-group. Seems pretty clear to me. A world with less moral clarity here is one with more (necessarily?) violence and destruction. Why do you think this line of argumentation is either morally permissable, or even virtuous? What argument convinced you?
smsm42 3y ago
Obviously, an organization violating our policy against hate organizations, which policy we will never fully define or spell out, because it would allow hate organizations to adapt and evade our policy. Do not worry though, we know what it is and you can always ask us if you're in doubt. If we banned it, then it's a hate organization, and if we didn't, then it's not. Unless we made a mistake, in which case we apologize for any inconvenience.
Dig1t 3y ago
Good question. The Babylon Bee was a satirical news website, like The Onion, that was deplatformed (censored) from Twitter for making a joke about a trans person. Hate is often defined on these platforms as speech that can cause offense to some people.
- stirfish 3y ago
  Babylon Bee received a 12 hour suspension for calling a woman a man. There wasn't even really a joke attached, they were just being mean. It's not relevant to this paper.
  - catiopatio 3y ago
    They received an indefinite suspension until and unless they agreed to remove their post. There was a joke attached, not that this is at all relevant — they were using humor to highlight the absurd.
youreincorrect 3y ago
Watch the scientism-believers come out of the woodwork to accuse you of asking this in bad faith. It is, of course, largely the same group of people who will redefine "hate" organization to include people who, for example, didn't want to get vaccinated against COVID-19 [1][2][3]. They know that "hate" can be redefined in any manner as they wish, and if they can correlate hate <=> censorship is beneficial, and they can correlate anything-I-don't-like <=> hate, then they can correlate anthing-I-don't-like <=> censorship is beneficial. But they want to pretend you're the "sea lion" in some moronic comic as an ironic shorthand to disrupt and short-circuit a serious conversation on censorship. 1: https://theconversation.com/the-inherent-racism-of-anti-vaxx-movements-163456 https://theconversation.com/the-inherent-racism-of-anti-vaxx... 2: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/eric-clapton-vaccine-lockdown-racist-comments-1239027/ https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/eric-clapt... 3: https://www.theedgemedia.org/purebloods-anti-semitism-white-supremacy-anti-vax/ https://www.theedgemedia.org/purebloods-anti-semitism-white-...
tenebrisalietum 3y ago
Let's try this definition: Group X is a hate organization if it explicity or implicity advocates, promotes, supports, or works toward the destruction of another group Y, with one or more of the following being true: - the reasons for the destruction are based on criteria that Y was born with and cannot change, - the reasons for the destruction are based on unproven, unprovable, or false claims, by X, targeting Y, that Y will destroy X. X may claim Y will destroy X through Y's very existence, through specific or vague planned action, or through attempts to rally, proselytize, or persuade. Claims may be but not limited to being scientific, economic or religious in nature. - group X believes it is receiving a mandate to commit the same to Y, due to an unproven, unprovable, or false claim that it has received a mandate, or one or more risen ringleaders in X have issued such a mandate based on a similar unproven, unprovable, or false claim. and often: - Ringleaders of X may be leveraging/exploiting/extorting one, some, or all of the following aspects of group members: emotions, faith, economic status, state of happiness, or threshold of accepting something as true without personally witnessing. The purpose of the manipulation is to align members of X towards action. Propaganda-like techniques may be employed.
- smsm42 3y ago
  Group that hates immigrants because they take our jobs fails your criteria. So does anti-muslim group that does not allege Muslims are about to destroy them via planned action. The police enforcing, say, marijuana prohibition, seeking to destroy marijuana use culture, fits several.

What is a hate organization?

kachnuv_ocasek 3y ago

> Organizations that proclaim a violent mission, engage in violence, and represent ideologies that promote hate

omginternets 3y ago
>represent ideologies that promote hate What's that, precisely?
- icandoit 3y ago
  Organizations that call for violence. Harming people or the destruction of property. Specific organization would include KKK and ISIS. I would also include organizations that use terrorism to further theier ends of environmentalism and animal rights. What is your goal with this line of argument. This looks a lot like devils advocacy. Like, what good comes from someone saying: "There's actually no such thing as hate-organizations." (Something you never said).
  - catiopatio 3y ago
    Is an organization that advocates for sex-based segregation of sports a hate group? According to some people, they’re advocating for actively harming people. According to others, they’re advocating for preventing harm.
    - master-lincoln 3y ago
      I would say that can not be answered by just looking at the agenda both groups want to push. It depends on how they do it. Advocating for something is not hate
  - Veen 3y ago
    I think a lot of the negative reactions to this paper are because people don't trust corporations and academics to determine what is hateful and what is not. And why should they? It's not that anyone thinks there are no hate groups or that the tactics outlined in the paper don't work, but that such tactics are likely to be abused by people in power to silence ideological opponents.
  - omginternets 3y ago
    My goal is to suggest that so-worded, a lot of organizations that aren't akin to the KKK an ISIS can be lumped into the same category, and often are. Here's a question for you: do you consider so-called "TERFs" to be a hate-group? And here's another: what do you do with the fact that the very notion of violence is being redefined to include such things as misgendering people? So I ask you this: are you really suggesting it's unreasonable to view this kind of research with caution and circumspection?
master-lincoln 3y ago
Is that a logical AND between all of those? Because if it's a logical OR, butchers might fall into the first 2 categories. And the last part is not very enlightening to define a hate group as it also uses the word hate again

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

dragontamer 3y ago

[flagged]

RobotToaster 3y ago
so a "hate organization" is a "Hate-based ... organizations"? That clears everything up.
gunapologist99 3y ago
> Did you not read the article at all? Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that". https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > ... organizations attempt to use online platforms to spread their ideology, recruit new members, and coordinate existing members Essentially all organizations do that, don't they? Did the article define what "hate" is?
- dragontamer 3y ago
  > Essentially all organizations do that, don't they? Hebrews don't. Plenty of groups don't plan to expand at all actually. Groups explicitly trying to spread hate and grow is key IMO. It separates you out from many other groups.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > Hebrews don't. Hence "essentially all" and not "all". Jehovah's Witnesses do, are they a hate group? Environmentalists? Libertarians? Socialist organizations? There are environmentalists who seriously hate people who drive cars. Like call them murderers and want them to suffer. But also, what is a group? Are feminists a group? If there exist self-described feminists who expressly advocate the killing of men, do we then take some action against anyone else who calls themselves a feminist or argues in favor of other feminist positions?
    - stirfish 3y ago

wslack 3y ago

Defined here as linked from a study footnote, for things like advocating for violence against civilians: https://transparency.fb.com/policies/community-standards/dangerous-individuals-organizations/ https://transparency.fb.com/policies/community-standards/dan...

IIAOPSW 3y ago

Well generally speaking, its a group of people organized around their shared interest in hating some other people.

IIAOPSW 3y ago

Well generally, its a group of people organized around a shared interest in hating some other group of people. Not much different from asking "what's a woodworking organization?" or "whats a criminal organization?"

flir 3y ago

One really good way to derail a discussion you're ideologically opposed to us to get in early and deflect it into a discussion about definitions. Someone's bound to fall for it. (Posted in the expectation that someone will be along soon with a bucket and mop).

stirfish 3y ago

[flagged]

ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
So, feminism?

icandoit 3y ago

Would you accept a definition that includes the KKK and ISIS? If the majority of an organizations public rhetoric is hate for other groups would you agree that makes them a hate organization? What is the purpose of this line of argumentation? Would you take the position that there are no such things as hate-organizations or hate-speech? The world is plainly better off with fewer organizations like the KKK and ISIS. Do you agree? That seems like as milquetoast as one can get. Are there organizations that you feel are labeled as hate-groups but are not? What hairs are we trying to split?

megaman821 3y ago
I kinda want to know the lines we are drawing here. Is a group advocating straight marriage a hate group? Is a group espousing all white people are racist a hate group? Also, I don't this paper is talking about the KKK or ISIS since I don't think they have a had presence on a social platform for quite a while.
smsm42 3y ago
Obviously not. Definition "any organization" includes KKK and ISIS, but not acceptable. Same for definition "any organization which includes men". Now, if you defined as "only KKK and ISIS"... still not clear. Which KKK? There were many of them. What if some organization is named KKK but isn't related to US racist one? What about racists that aren't holding a formal membership of KKK - are they fine (if they steer clear of ISIS too)? Giving two examples which seem obvious to you (even those aren't as simple as yoh think) is not the same as giving workable definition. Obviously also there are plenty of organizations that are labeled as hate by some people and other people disagree with it. Look up this week's controversy about SPLC for some examples, but they are in no way unique. You think of it as splitting hairs because you can't imagine how people can disagree with what you imagine to be obvious. But it's not as obvious as you think.
- icandoit 3y ago
  > But it's not as obvious as you think. If a person or organization calls for violence or the destruction of property, they are a terrorist organization. If the reasons they give for this are based on identity they are additionally a hate-group. Seems pretty clear to me. A world with less moral clarity here is one with more (necessarily?) violence and destruction. Why do you think this line of argumentation is either morally permissable, or even virtuous? What argument convinced you?

smsm42 3y ago

Obviously, an organization violating our policy against hate organizations, which policy we will never fully define or spell out, because it would allow hate organizations to adapt and evade our policy. Do not worry though, we know what it is and you can always ask us if you're in doubt. If we banned it, then it's a hate organization, and if we didn't, then it's not. Unless we made a mistake, in which case we apologize for any inconvenience.

Dig1t 3y ago

Good question. The Babylon Bee was a satirical news website, like The Onion, that was deplatformed (censored) from Twitter for making a joke about a trans person. Hate is often defined on these platforms as speech that can cause offense to some people.

stirfish 3y ago
Babylon Bee received a 12 hour suspension for calling a woman a man. There wasn't even really a joke attached, they were just being mean. It's not relevant to this paper.
- catiopatio 3y ago
  They received an indefinite suspension until and unless they agreed to remove their post. There was a joke attached, not that this is at all relevant — they were using humor to highlight the absurd.

youreincorrect 3y ago

Watch the scientism-believers come out of the woodwork to accuse you of asking this in bad faith. It is, of course, largely the same group of people who will redefine "hate" organization to include people who, for example, didn't want to get vaccinated against COVID-19 [1][2][3]. They know that "hate" can be redefined in any manner as they wish, and if they can correlate hate <=> censorship is beneficial, and they can correlate anything-I-don't-like <=> hate, then they can correlate anthing-I-don't-like <=> censorship is beneficial. But they want to pretend you're the "sea lion" in some moronic comic as an ironic shorthand to disrupt and short-circuit a serious conversation on censorship. 1: https://theconversation.com/the-inherent-racism-of-anti-vaxx-movements-163456 https://theconversation.com/the-inherent-racism-of-anti-vaxx... 2: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/eric-clapton-vaccine-lockdown-racist-comments-1239027/ https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/eric-clapt... 3: https://www.theedgemedia.org/purebloods-anti-semitism-white-supremacy-anti-vax/ https://www.theedgemedia.org/purebloods-anti-semitism-white-...

tenebrisalietum 3y ago

Let's try this definition: Group X is a hate organization if it explicity or implicity advocates, promotes, supports, or works toward the destruction of another group Y, with one or more of the following being true: - the reasons for the destruction are based on criteria that Y was born with and cannot change, - the reasons for the destruction are based on unproven, unprovable, or false claims, by X, targeting Y, that Y will destroy X. X may claim Y will destroy X through Y's very existence, through specific or vague planned action, or through attempts to rally, proselytize, or persuade. Claims may be but not limited to being scientific, economic or religious in nature. - group X believes it is receiving a mandate to commit the same to Y, due to an unproven, unprovable, or false claim that it has received a mandate, or one or more risen ringleaders in X have issued such a mandate based on a similar unproven, unprovable, or false claim. and often: - Ringleaders of X may be leveraging/exploiting/extorting one, some, or all of the following aspects of group members: emotions, faith, economic status, state of happiness, or threshold of accepting something as true without personally witnessing. The purpose of the manipulation is to align members of X towards action. Propaganda-like techniques may be employed.

smsm42 3y ago
Group that hates immigrants because they take our jobs fails your criteria. So does anti-muslim group that does not allege Muslims are about to destroy them via planned action. The police enforcing, say, marijuana prohibition, seeking to destroy marijuana use culture, fits several.