9 ms·

Penguin T4 GNU/Linux Laptop

87 points by dxs 3y ago

jmclnx 3y ago
>No dependencies on proprietary drivers or OS-loaded binary blobs that can interfere with long term support This is nice, seems competition is increasing between the Linux hardware vendors. But will need to keep them in mind due to the proprietary statements. > Compatible With OpenBSD My number 1 requirement
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
totalhack 3y ago
As someone who wants stuff like this to succeed, I must say you lost me at DDR4 and ~1" thick.
- w0m 3y ago
  DVD R/W but no bluetooth on a modern laptop? It feels kind of like a joke...
  - fullstop 3y ago
    Perhaps the available BT modules all required binary blobs?
    - ansible 3y ago
      I'm sure they all do. Source: Used to work on Bluetooth consumer equipment
      - fsflover 3y ago
        https://ryf.fsf.org/categories/bluetooth-adapters https://ryf.fsf.org/categories/bluetooth-adapters
        Arnavion 3y ago
        Yes, both based on the CSR8510.
        ansible 3y ago
        OK, in this case, the BT firmware is in ROM on the chip, instead of being loaded by the OS and system start. So, yes, technically, there is no binary blob loaded by the operating system.
    - creshal 3y ago
      They do offer a BT dongle via USB, so clearly there's at least one. Why not have its chip on the mainboard? Using USB for soldered-on BT is fairly common.
      - mixmastamyk 3y ago
        I don’t think I’ve ever used bluetooth… what are you using it for?
        Nextgrid 3y ago
        Input or audio peripherals.
        creshal 3y ago
        On a good laptop, I would at most need it for audio (cable connectors break too easily when I'm working in a bus/train/airplane, no thanks). But since the devs can't count to three, I'll need an external mouse, and I don't trust that keyboard either. So that's three devices that are best solved with bluetooth, if you don't want connectors to break off inside the laptop at some point.
        w0m 3y ago
        Mouse, Keyboard, headphones. Dongles work 'fine' - but that's not ideal on a modern device.
      - fullstop 3y ago
        Right, but those usually require some sort of binary blob despite being USB. Look in /lib/firmware. My laptop has a Bluetooth adapter connected internally, made by Intel. # modinfo btintel filename: /lib/modules/6.1.30-1-lts/kernel/drivers/bluetooth/btintel.ko.zst firmware: intel/ibt-12-16.ddc firmware: intel/ibt-12-16.sfi firmware: intel/ibt-11-5.ddc firmware: intel/ibt-11-5.sfi It still requires binary blobs to function.
        creshal 3y ago
        I'd expect the company to pick one that works without firmware. I know a bunch of realteks don't need any; Intel has been hopeless for ages.
creshal 3y ago
My impressions as someone who's been exclusively using Linux on laptops since 2007: Heavy. Intel-only, and not even good for an Intel. Poor display. Designers can't count to three (mouse buttons). Optical drive but no built-in bluetooth on a laptop in 2023, really? RAM for 3x the market rate. Tiny battery. I wouldn't even get this is a political statement (too heavy and bulky), never mind as an actual daily driver.
- ianai 3y ago
  Whoa. I got a little over 1k for a 32g/1Tb build with bluray burner. I’d be fine picking this up if I really were in the market. It’s maybe a premium on what I could pick up at Costco, but honestly not that huge of a markup. Unfortunately small boutique shops like this can’t price like mega outlets like Costco, but feels like they did fine.
  - creshal 3y ago
    64GB DDR4-SODIMM costs about 115€ including shipping right now, for the T4 the upgrade from 8 costs over 300. It's the same markup you get from companies like Apple. And I don't mind spending money on a convincing laptop, but since everything else is also unattractive, the nickel and dime-ing just makes it worse.
- activiation 3y ago
  Bluetooth is an option... But yeah they probably should have included it as a default option and removed the optical drive from the default
  - adamckay 3y ago
    It's an option as a tiny USB adapter you plug in, versus being built-in to the laptop.
    - activiation 3y ago
      The tiny USB adapter would be a lot cheaper too.. not sure why they charge $45 for bluetooth
endorphine 3y ago
Is this a new firm? Surprised I'm hearing it for the first time. Anyone can share feedback about their laptops and customer support? Bonus point if one can compare them to Lenovo.
- fsflover 3y ago
  Definitely not a new firm: http://www.fsf.org/news/a-second-fsf-certified-device-from-thinkpenguin-long-range-usb-wifi-adapter-with-atheros-chip http://www.fsf.org/news/a-second-fsf-certified-device-from-t..., https://hn.algolia.com/?q=thinkpenguin https://hn.algolia.com/?q=thinkpenguin.
tiernano 3y ago
Why do the power options show as [censored] or [censored] and [censored]... WTF?!
- przemub 3y ago
  Some kind of political statement against the EU and UK? WTF indeed.
- arp242 3y ago
  I found: https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/why-are-you-censoring-information https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/why-are-you-censoring... TIL that regulatory standards for products within your our country is colonisation.
  - kop316 3y ago
    FYI: https://gdpr.eu/companies-outside-of-europe/ https://gdpr.eu/companies-outside-of-europe/ > The GDPR does apply outside Europe > Suppose you run a golf course in Manitoba focused exclusively on your local area, but sometimes people in France stumble across your site. Would you find yourself in the crosshairs of European regulators? It’s not likely. But technically you could be held accountable for tracking these data.
    - arp242 3y ago
      Yes, it applies to everyone who does business with European customers. I think that's fair – actually, it's the only way to do things on the interwebz because otherwise it would be trivial to bypass. This is why a number of US sites have decided to just not do business in Europe and just outright block it, which I think is an entirely fair decision. The thinkpenguin people seem to want to eat their cake and have it too.
      - kop316 3y ago
        I do agree that thinkpenguin seems to want to have their cake and eat it too. However, I think the claim that they can go after a website even if that website does not do business in Europe is entirely unreasonable.
frantathefranta 3y ago
Are the same people interested in a GNU/Linux laptop the same ones that want to buy a VPN subscription alongside it?
itomato 3y ago
Are people still playing this ODM game? https://www.quantatw.com/Quanta/english/product/qci_nb.aspx https://www.quantatw.com/Quanta/english/product/qci_nb.aspx Is there a Quanta SKU for this model?
dxs 3y ago
From the Penguin Sales email I received this morning... I believe you inquired about our laptops some time back as we literally had nothing the laptop section and were told that we were working on replacing an older generation when you reached out. We probably told you industry norms were working against us. Basically the industry has migrated to design choices that are pretty terrible and while we could get around them it would take more energy and capital to do deviate from those bad choices. For instance the wireless antenna on most newer laptops is placed under the laptop rather than in the screen. This interferes with the reception so using the laptop at a distance from the access point can be problematic. Touchpads that are designed to look good, but don't function well. Well, we've got a model with physical buttons now alongside multi-touch support so you can get the best of both worlds. At least in terms of functionality and usability. Though I'll admit it might not look quite as pretty- at least the laptop is still a very thin portable awesome looking unit. There will probably be a video coming out this week demonstrating the new model.
- creshal 3y ago
  > Well, we've got a model with physical buttons now alongside multi-touch support so you can get the best of both worlds. At least in terms of functionality and usability. A third mouse button like we had back in the late 1980s would be a nice improvement over a simple two-button design.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    Three-finger tap works fine for me on xfce.
    - creshal 3y ago
      Only on a high quality touchpad, if they're poorly calibrated it's not reliable enough. I don't trust these guys.
  - scrlk 3y ago
    Until recently, most mobile workstations had three button touchpads. The HP ZBook Fury 16 is the only model left from a major vendor that has a three button touchpad.
rsynnott 3y ago
> The laptop goes much farther though in incorporating a unique set of traditional functionality that will make you as productive as yesteryear. ... I mean, _traditional_ laptops were pretty terrible. Nostalgia seems like a bad way to sell laptops. The good old days when you got battery life of an hour and suspend didn't work properly...
- creshal 3y ago
  Traditional laptops like the Thinkpad X201 or X220 back from over ten years ago were lighter, had brighter and denser displays, didn't make me pay extra for bluetooth and even had a third mouse button for scrolling.
  - ziml77 3y ago
    Not just paying quite a bit more for Bluetooth, but it's not even internal. It takes up a USB port!
  - kitsunesoba 3y ago
    Old laptops also had arguably better aspect ratios, though Apple at least stuck firmly to 16:10 as everybody else jumped aboard the 16:9 bandwagon.
    - constantcrying 3y ago
      >everybody else jumped aboard the 16:9 bandwagon Framework thankfully didn't and Microsoft also realized before them that vertical space is quite useful.
      - kitsunesoba 3y ago
        The whole of the x86 laptop space has been trending away from 16:9 in the past couple of years — I have a 16:10 ThinkPad from 2021 for example. This is great, but it sure took a long time… the 16:9 takeover and the terrible reign of 1366x768 began at some point around 2007 and only started relinquishing in 2021.
bandrami 3y ago
An onboard optical drive in 2023?
scandox 3y ago
All I want is a proper keyboard. Last X220 died. Recommendations welcome.
- Xen9 3y ago
  Vikings (https://store.vikings.net/en/ https://store.vikings.net/en/) sells refurbished coreboot ThinkPads for a reasonable price.
  - Shared404 3y ago
    As does the Libreboot developer https://minifree.org/ https://minifree.org/ .
- creshal 3y ago
  I don't suppose X62 can still be sourced, so… I'd guess another X220? I've yet to see a laptop with a better keyboard.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- drumhead 3y ago
  My x220 is on its last legs so I'm also looking for a replacement with a real keyboard
nvahalik 3y ago
Confused. AC Adapter: - Us, Mexico, Canada - Australia / New Zealand - [censored] - Plug Type "Europlug" - [censored] & [censored] ("UK" style) - Japan lol wat
nluken 3y ago
All of those specs and not a single mention of how much this thing costs. How can any potential customer reasonably compare this to another laptop without knowing the base price?
- ianai 3y ago
  Click add to cart.
- primis 3y ago
  I just added a base configuration to the cart to see the price, looks like it starts at $799, which is pretty reasonable imho.
- saltminer 3y ago
  Their catalog [0] lists the base price as $799.00, and you can easily spec it out and add to cart to view the cost with your ideal configuration. [0] https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/notebook-computers-gnu-linux https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/notebook-computers-gnu-...
  - nluken 3y ago
    Missed the catalog section, so makes a little more sense in the context of browsing the site from the start. Still, I shouldn’t have to add to cart to actually see the price as configured. I don’t want to get too far in the weeds here since we’re not generally supposed to critique site design on HN. But it feels relevant to the conversation given the product text doesn’t have that information.
- Xen9 3y ago
  2023-06-12: The site displays this; but 64 GB RAM, 8 TB SSD and additional luxuries raise the price to about 2800 USD.
amir734jj 3y ago
I own a system 76. It has been reliable but I really really miss my 2015 MacBook pro. I stayed with the company longer just because of that laptop and left when they gave us butterfly keyboard MacBook pro.
jll29 3y ago
When compared to my 970 gram (<2 lbs) Think Pad X1 Nano Gen 2, I'll happily pass on the T4.
lockhouse 3y ago
People talk about the Apple tax all the time but the Linux tax is real too. Of course there’s something to be said for putting your money where your mouth is and not giving Microsoft money for an OS you’ll never use. Mainstream Windows laptops are often partly subsidized with a healthy dose of trialware installations and Linux laptops are too niche to reach economies of scale, but the good thing is that if you choose carefully it’s pretty trivial to install Linux over top of Windows these days.
- arp242 3y ago
  I'm writing this on the cheapest laptop they had at the store, and Linux runs fine on it without any problems, using a standard installation without any tinkering needed. Everything "just works". In my experience that's more often true than not these days (or maybe I've just been very lucky). Your mileage may vary with other models of course, but you certainly don't need a "Linux tax" to be a happy Linux user.
rnk 3y ago
Consider the framework laptop. It's so easy to upgrade yourself.
ecmascript 3y ago
I like linux and I want linux laptops and their companies to succeed but this page is so bad on so many levels: - No information about price - No shipping information / warrenty for abroad - Weight and other measurements is only in american system - DVD drive on a laptop 2023? - Censored information? - Barely any pictures, the single one that exist is so small so it's hard to see. - Shitty design that looks like one of my first webpages Sorry but you could do a lot better in just the presentation of your products.
airgapstopgap 3y ago
> 15.6”(39.62cm) FHD (1920x1080) 16:9 panel, 3.2mm I've been disgusted with this stuff for well over a decade. I remember how excited I was when Microsoft showed they can see and made a glitchy 2-in-1 with bright, high-resolution 3:2 touch screen, Surface Book. When was that? Ah, 2015. Then, some Chinese noname knock-off with a Snapdragon SoC copied it, probably literally bought the same panels; I was tempted by the low price point but reasoned it's useless for work and I might as well buy a 16:9 tablet for fun. Then, I think it was some Dell super-thin premium ultrabook? Overheating Huawei with rare, subpar resolution? A few fashionable ultrabooks on underpowered Intels when I wanted a Ryzen 5800H but apparently Intel negotiated their AMD versions don't get good screens? Then, Apple got close with 2021 Macbook Pro. I bought Apple, because it was the first one without crippling flaws and unabashed contempt for the user, as it unfortunately happens almost every time. It also conspicuously rectified many other mistakes of Apple itself: the cable, the charging port, the thinness and thin corners fetish, the cooling, the keyboard, well, you remember it. It wasn't a laptop of my dream by any measure, which is more like "a bit thinner X440p, made with modern affordances and fuller utilization of the volume and lid space". (No, X1 ain't it). But it was good enough to consider that it's someone's dream. And it's a honor to use dream products in principle. Anyway, the point goes beyond displays. This all convinced me that independent laptop makers absolutely can produce devices with displays of almost arbitrary ratio and resolution and indeed very close to my dream in other respects, but they won't because they have no ambition and no interest in their user's use cases; their drive is exhausted by pandering to some self-identifying nerds and selling a few thousands of "configurable" junk on a generic OEM Shenzhen chassis to the suckers. They do not eat their own dog food. Or perhaps, less cynically, there's just too few people like me and even they'll rather get a good-enough Macbook.
jcarrano 3y ago
Why do they include an optical drive? It's not even optional.
primis 3y ago
This is a cool laptop but after looking it over I hope ThinkPenguin decides to sell replacement batteries (since they are removable) and perhaps even a higher capacity one that sticks out the back a bit. Also the inclusion of a B key M.2 is great for say, an LTE modem, but the page makes no mention if they wired a SIM card slot up to it. Another thing I wish was an option would be to configure without a wifi module, since not everyone is focused on libre firmware, it'd be nice to throw a generic wifi+bt module in there, rather than have to rely on an external bluetooth dongle. I know I can just swap it out later, but that's sunken cost and e-waste for the built in unit which kind of stinks. EDIT: I checked around their shop, they do sell replacement batteries for $109, but I still wish they sold an extended cell variant like laptops did 10 years ago.
hnbear 3y ago
I’m deeply suspicious of anywhere trying to cross-sell me VPNs. The commentary around “traditional” efficiency with trackpads - after using the latest Apple trackpads everything else is awful. I have no good memories of trackpads of day of yore either. The MacBook trackpad is better without physical buttons. The haptics are so good I can’t tell it’s not physical, and it’s one fewer physical thing to break. “SSD is a new tech”? Really? Coupled with actual spinning drives as options, which are awful in laptops given they’re moving parts. I wish I could opt out of the power adaptor. I have a 150W GAN power brick on my desk and in my bag that can charge my iPad Pro, MacBook Pro, Carbon X1, etc all without fuss. Apple Watch, iPhone too with the right cables. Everything USB-C all the time, please. Not some power brick from the 90s with a barrel. No Bluetooth just seems like a weird choice. Awful screen. A webcam cover gets a bullet? Those are 5 for $10 on Amazon. Seems a weird thing to call out and focus on. I can’t remember the last time I used or burnt a CD or DVD. USB drives are so much more flexible with vastly higher capacities and speeds. This whole laptop reads as “the laptop you wanted in the 90s, here today in 2023”.
apricot 3y ago
A USB 2.0 port? 47 Wh battery? 4.4 lb? What is this, 2010?
pwr22 3y ago
> While the T4 is thin and light at just .97 inches thick and 4.63 lbs it still boasts a DVD-RW drive (w/ opt. for Blu-ray) It's an inch thick and weighs over two kilos. That's not really thin or light...
pmontra 3y ago
Good things: - up to 64 GB RAM - both M2 NVME SSD and a SATA slot, so I could add my current SATA SSD. - 2 kg - 10/100/1000 Ethernet - 5 USB ports, mixed types - VGA (maybe much needed anymore but OK) - HDMI - headphone/mic jack - mic only jack (but why another one?) - webcam on top of the screen - card reader - pretty inexpensive Bad things: - Intel i5 only - only 2 mouse buttons but this is a Linux laptop: it must have 3. Maybe they can't find any company building 3 mouse buttons touchpads. - it has a numberpad, which is standard on 15" laptops, but the keyboard is offcenter with the screen. - US keyboard only, but I could live with that if it was the only bad thing. My fingers remember where keys are. Neutral - 1080p 16:9 is OKish for me. 16:10 or 16:12 (that is 4:3 [1]) would be better. Unknowns: - how easy is it to open and replace parts? - is RAM soldered or replaceable? Apparently it's replaceable because they write that you can "upgrade later". - what's up with "Most USB data transfer cables on the market include a proprietary flash component that interferes with their usability. With our USB data transfer cable no such component exists" at $59.99? Weirdness: - an optical drive? Well, maybe that could turn into an extra slot for a SSD, with a caddy. - bluetooth No Thanks? Compared to "No SATA Drive" or the several "Select" menus, is that a statement against bluetooth? - the two "censored" European AC Adapters. - the VPN service, almost suspicious. [1] Remember that 16:9 is 4:2.25. We used to have 4:3 screens even wider than the horizontal 36 cm of most current 15" laptops. They shortened our screens.
- endorphine 3y ago
  Why is i5-only a con? I heard that for ThinkPads at least, the i7 would have lower battery life for no significant gain. Not sure if that's true
  - pmontra 3y ago
    My current laptop is an i7. It's a 4th gen i7 so a 13th gen i5 is probably better but I'd like to stay on i7. I don't care much about battery life, there is at least a wall socket everywhere I work at home.
- activiation 3y ago
  > only 2 mouse buttons but this is a Linux laptop: it must have 3. Maybe they can't find any company building 3 mouse buttons touchpads. Isn't pushing 2 buttons at the same time on a 2-button mouse the same as pushing the third button on a 3 button mouse?
t0astbread 3y ago
It's probably an insignificant detail but why do some options in the AC adapter category contain the word "[censored]"? [censored] - Plug Type "Europlug" (CEE 7/16) [censored] & [censored] ("UK" style) - Plug Type G Edit: Nevermind, somebody else beat me to it and I just didn't scroll down far enough: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36293069 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36293069
cazum 3y ago
>The laptop includes a properly supported wifi card that isn’t hampered by a dysfunctional antenna solution that has become standard in most laptops for a while now. The antennas remain in the traditional and optimal location just behind the screen so your wifi performance isn’t impeded by the base of the laptop. Is this actually solving a problem anyone has ever had? I pay a lot of attention to the laptop market and I've never heard of internal "antenna placement" being an issue before.
argsnd 3y ago
One thing I've never understood is the FSF opposition to microcode and loadable firmware blobs. You're running proprietary hardware that clearly uses some firmware, what do you get out of insisting that the firmware is burned in at the factory and completely unmodifiable/updatable?
activiation 3y ago
Wow the price is surprisingly low.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dlqx 3y ago
Is it using libreboot?
opan 3y ago
Will this really work well out of the box with distros using linux-libre, such as Guix System? I believe every Intel iGPU after Haswell depends on binary blobs. I also agree with several of the complaints others have made. Three mouse buttons is a must. I'd also prefer a trackball or pointing stick to a trackpad. I think x86 is on its way out, and the issues of Intel ME and AMD PSP have made it not ideal for the likely audience of this laptop for quite some time. I wonder why they haven't gone with ARM or RISC-V like the MNT Reform or Pinebook Pro.

87 points by dxs 3y ago

>No dependencies on proprietary drivers or OS-loaded binary blobs that can interfere with long term support This is nice, seems competition is increasing between the Linux hardware vendors. But will need to keep them in mind due to the proprietary statements. > Compatible With OpenBSD My number 1 requirement

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

totalhack 3y ago

As someone who wants stuff like this to succeed, I must say you lost me at DDR4 and ~1" thick.

w0m 3y ago
DVD R/W but no bluetooth on a modern laptop? It feels kind of like a joke...
- fullstop 3y ago
  Perhaps the available BT modules all required binary blobs?
  - ansible 3y ago
    I'm sure they all do. Source: Used to work on Bluetooth consumer equipment
    - fsflover 3y ago
      https://ryf.fsf.org/categories/bluetooth-adapters https://ryf.fsf.org/categories/bluetooth-adapters
      - Arnavion 3y ago
        Yes, both based on the CSR8510.
      - ansible 3y ago
        OK, in this case, the BT firmware is in ROM on the chip, instead of being loaded by the OS and system start. So, yes, technically, there is no binary blob loaded by the operating system.
  - creshal 3y ago
    They do offer a BT dongle via USB, so clearly there's at least one. Why not have its chip on the mainboard? Using USB for soldered-on BT is fairly common.
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      I don’t think I’ve ever used bluetooth… what are you using it for?
      - Nextgrid 3y ago
        Input or audio peripherals.
      - creshal 3y ago
        On a good laptop, I would at most need it for audio (cable connectors break too easily when I'm working in a bus/train/airplane, no thanks). But since the devs can't count to three, I'll need an external mouse, and I don't trust that keyboard either. So that's three devices that are best solved with bluetooth, if you don't want connectors to break off inside the laptop at some point.
      - w0m 3y ago
        Mouse, Keyboard, headphones. Dongles work 'fine' - but that's not ideal on a modern device.
    - fullstop 3y ago
      Right, but those usually require some sort of binary blob despite being USB. Look in /lib/firmware. My laptop has a Bluetooth adapter connected internally, made by Intel. # modinfo btintel filename: /lib/modules/6.1.30-1-lts/kernel/drivers/bluetooth/btintel.ko.zst firmware: intel/ibt-12-16.ddc firmware: intel/ibt-12-16.sfi firmware: intel/ibt-11-5.ddc firmware: intel/ibt-11-5.sfi It still requires binary blobs to function.
      - creshal 3y ago
        I'd expect the company to pick one that works without firmware. I know a bunch of realteks don't need any; Intel has been hopeless for ages.

creshal 3y ago

My impressions as someone who's been exclusively using Linux on laptops since 2007: Heavy. Intel-only, and not even good for an Intel. Poor display. Designers can't count to three (mouse buttons). Optical drive but no built-in bluetooth on a laptop in 2023, really? RAM for 3x the market rate. Tiny battery. I wouldn't even get this is a political statement (too heavy and bulky), never mind as an actual daily driver.

ianai 3y ago
Whoa. I got a little over 1k for a 32g/1Tb build with bluray burner. I’d be fine picking this up if I really were in the market. It’s maybe a premium on what I could pick up at Costco, but honestly not that huge of a markup. Unfortunately small boutique shops like this can’t price like mega outlets like Costco, but feels like they did fine.
- creshal 3y ago
  64GB DDR4-SODIMM costs about 115€ including shipping right now, for the T4 the upgrade from 8 costs over 300. It's the same markup you get from companies like Apple. And I don't mind spending money on a convincing laptop, but since everything else is also unattractive, the nickel and dime-ing just makes it worse.
activiation 3y ago
Bluetooth is an option... But yeah they probably should have included it as a default option and removed the optical drive from the default
- adamckay 3y ago
  It's an option as a tiny USB adapter you plug in, versus being built-in to the laptop.
  - activiation 3y ago
    The tiny USB adapter would be a lot cheaper too.. not sure why they charge $45 for bluetooth

endorphine 3y ago

Is this a new firm? Surprised I'm hearing it for the first time. Anyone can share feedback about their laptops and customer support? Bonus point if one can compare them to Lenovo.

fsflover 3y ago
Definitely not a new firm: http://www.fsf.org/news/a-second-fsf-certified-device-from-thinkpenguin-long-range-usb-wifi-adapter-with-atheros-chip http://www.fsf.org/news/a-second-fsf-certified-device-from-t..., https://hn.algolia.com/?q=thinkpenguin https://hn.algolia.com/?q=thinkpenguin.

tiernano 3y ago

Why do the power options show as [censored] or [censored] and [censored]... WTF?!

przemub 3y ago
Some kind of political statement against the EU and UK? WTF indeed.
arp242 3y ago
I found: https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/why-are-you-censoring-information https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/why-are-you-censoring... TIL that regulatory standards for products within your our country is colonisation.
- kop316 3y ago
  FYI: https://gdpr.eu/companies-outside-of-europe/ https://gdpr.eu/companies-outside-of-europe/ > The GDPR does apply outside Europe > Suppose you run a golf course in Manitoba focused exclusively on your local area, but sometimes people in France stumble across your site. Would you find yourself in the crosshairs of European regulators? It’s not likely. But technically you could be held accountable for tracking these data.
  - arp242 3y ago
    Yes, it applies to everyone who does business with European customers. I think that's fair – actually, it's the only way to do things on the interwebz because otherwise it would be trivial to bypass. This is why a number of US sites have decided to just not do business in Europe and just outright block it, which I think is an entirely fair decision. The thinkpenguin people seem to want to eat their cake and have it too.
    - kop316 3y ago
      I do agree that thinkpenguin seems to want to have their cake and eat it too. However, I think the claim that they can go after a website even if that website does not do business in Europe is entirely unreasonable.

frantathefranta 3y ago

Are the same people interested in a GNU/Linux laptop the same ones that want to buy a VPN subscription alongside it?

itomato 3y ago

Are people still playing this ODM game? https://www.quantatw.com/Quanta/english/product/qci_nb.aspx https://www.quantatw.com/Quanta/english/product/qci_nb.aspx Is there a Quanta SKU for this model?

dxs 3y ago

From the Penguin Sales email I received this morning... I believe you inquired about our laptops some time back as we literally had nothing the laptop section and were told that we were working on replacing an older generation when you reached out. We probably told you industry norms were working against us. Basically the industry has migrated to design choices that are pretty terrible and while we could get around them it would take more energy and capital to do deviate from those bad choices. For instance the wireless antenna on most newer laptops is placed under the laptop rather than in the screen. This interferes with the reception so using the laptop at a distance from the access point can be problematic. Touchpads that are designed to look good, but don't function well. Well, we've got a model with physical buttons now alongside multi-touch support so you can get the best of both worlds. At least in terms of functionality and usability. Though I'll admit it might not look quite as pretty- at least the laptop is still a very thin portable awesome looking unit. There will probably be a video coming out this week demonstrating the new model.

creshal 3y ago
> Well, we've got a model with physical buttons now alongside multi-touch support so you can get the best of both worlds. At least in terms of functionality and usability. A third mouse button like we had back in the late 1980s would be a nice improvement over a simple two-button design.
- fsflover 3y ago
  Three-finger tap works fine for me on xfce.
  - creshal 3y ago
    Only on a high quality touchpad, if they're poorly calibrated it's not reliable enough. I don't trust these guys.
- scrlk 3y ago
  Until recently, most mobile workstations had three button touchpads. The HP ZBook Fury 16 is the only model left from a major vendor that has a three button touchpad.

rsynnott 3y ago

> The laptop goes much farther though in incorporating a unique set of traditional functionality that will make you as productive as yesteryear. ... I mean, _traditional_ laptops were pretty terrible. Nostalgia seems like a bad way to sell laptops. The good old days when you got battery life of an hour and suspend didn't work properly...

creshal 3y ago
Traditional laptops like the Thinkpad X201 or X220 back from over ten years ago were lighter, had brighter and denser displays, didn't make me pay extra for bluetooth and even had a third mouse button for scrolling.
- ziml77 3y ago
  Not just paying quite a bit more for Bluetooth, but it's not even internal. It takes up a USB port!
- kitsunesoba 3y ago
  Old laptops also had arguably better aspect ratios, though Apple at least stuck firmly to 16:10 as everybody else jumped aboard the 16:9 bandwagon.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    >everybody else jumped aboard the 16:9 bandwagon Framework thankfully didn't and Microsoft also realized before them that vertical space is quite useful.
    - kitsunesoba 3y ago
      The whole of the x86 laptop space has been trending away from 16:9 in the past couple of years — I have a 16:10 ThinkPad from 2021 for example. This is great, but it sure took a long time… the 16:9 takeover and the terrible reign of 1366x768 began at some point around 2007 and only started relinquishing in 2021.

bandrami 3y ago

An onboard optical drive in 2023?

scandox 3y ago

All I want is a proper keyboard. Last X220 died. Recommendations welcome.

Xen9 3y ago
Vikings (https://store.vikings.net/en/ https://store.vikings.net/en/) sells refurbished coreboot ThinkPads for a reasonable price.
- Shared404 3y ago
  As does the Libreboot developer https://minifree.org/ https://minifree.org/ .
creshal 3y ago
I don't suppose X62 can still be sourced, so… I'd guess another X220? I've yet to see a laptop with a better keyboard.
deleted 3y ago
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drumhead 3y ago
My x220 is on its last legs so I'm also looking for a replacement with a real keyboard

nvahalik 3y ago

Confused. AC Adapter: - Us, Mexico, Canada - Australia / New Zealand - [censored] - Plug Type "Europlug" - [censored] & [censored] ("UK" style) - Japan lol wat

nluken 3y ago

All of those specs and not a single mention of how much this thing costs. How can any potential customer reasonably compare this to another laptop without knowing the base price?

ianai 3y ago
Click add to cart.
primis 3y ago
I just added a base configuration to the cart to see the price, looks like it starts at $799, which is pretty reasonable imho.
saltminer 3y ago
Their catalog [0] lists the base price as $799.00, and you can easily spec it out and add to cart to view the cost with your ideal configuration. [0] https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/notebook-computers-gnu-linux https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/notebook-computers-gnu-...
- nluken 3y ago
  Missed the catalog section, so makes a little more sense in the context of browsing the site from the start. Still, I shouldn’t have to add to cart to actually see the price as configured. I don’t want to get too far in the weeds here since we’re not generally supposed to critique site design on HN. But it feels relevant to the conversation given the product text doesn’t have that information.
Xen9 3y ago
2023-06-12: The site displays this; but 64 GB RAM, 8 TB SSD and additional luxuries raise the price to about 2800 USD.

amir734jj 3y ago

I own a system 76. It has been reliable but I really really miss my 2015 MacBook pro. I stayed with the company longer just because of that laptop and left when they gave us butterfly keyboard MacBook pro.

jll29 3y ago

When compared to my 970 gram (<2 lbs) Think Pad X1 Nano Gen 2, I'll happily pass on the T4.

lockhouse 3y ago

People talk about the Apple tax all the time but the Linux tax is real too. Of course there’s something to be said for putting your money where your mouth is and not giving Microsoft money for an OS you’ll never use. Mainstream Windows laptops are often partly subsidized with a healthy dose of trialware installations and Linux laptops are too niche to reach economies of scale, but the good thing is that if you choose carefully it’s pretty trivial to install Linux over top of Windows these days.

arp242 3y ago
I'm writing this on the cheapest laptop they had at the store, and Linux runs fine on it without any problems, using a standard installation without any tinkering needed. Everything "just works". In my experience that's more often true than not these days (or maybe I've just been very lucky). Your mileage may vary with other models of course, but you certainly don't need a "Linux tax" to be a happy Linux user.

rnk 3y ago

Consider the framework laptop. It's so easy to upgrade yourself.

ecmascript 3y ago

I like linux and I want linux laptops and their companies to succeed but this page is so bad on so many levels: - No information about price - No shipping information / warrenty for abroad - Weight and other measurements is only in american system - DVD drive on a laptop 2023? - Censored information? - Barely any pictures, the single one that exist is so small so it's hard to see. - Shitty design that looks like one of my first webpages Sorry but you could do a lot better in just the presentation of your products.

airgapstopgap 3y ago

> 15.6”(39.62cm) FHD (1920x1080) 16:9 panel, 3.2mm I've been disgusted with this stuff for well over a decade. I remember how excited I was when Microsoft showed they can see and made a glitchy 2-in-1 with bright, high-resolution 3:2 touch screen, Surface Book. When was that? Ah, 2015. Then, some Chinese noname knock-off with a Snapdragon SoC copied it, probably literally bought the same panels; I was tempted by the low price point but reasoned it's useless for work and I might as well buy a 16:9 tablet for fun. Then, I think it was some Dell super-thin premium ultrabook? Overheating Huawei with rare, subpar resolution? A few fashionable ultrabooks on underpowered Intels when I wanted a Ryzen 5800H but apparently Intel negotiated their AMD versions don't get good screens? Then, Apple got close with 2021 Macbook Pro. I bought Apple, because it was the first one without crippling flaws and unabashed contempt for the user, as it unfortunately happens almost every time. It also conspicuously rectified many other mistakes of Apple itself: the cable, the charging port, the thinness and thin corners fetish, the cooling, the keyboard, well, you remember it. It wasn't a laptop of my dream by any measure, which is more like "a bit thinner X440p, made with modern affordances and fuller utilization of the volume and lid space". (No, X1 ain't it). But it was good enough to consider that it's someone's dream. And it's a honor to use dream products in principle. Anyway, the point goes beyond displays. This all convinced me that independent laptop makers absolutely can produce devices with displays of almost arbitrary ratio and resolution and indeed very close to my dream in other respects, but they won't because they have no ambition and no interest in their user's use cases; their drive is exhausted by pandering to some self-identifying nerds and selling a few thousands of "configurable" junk on a generic OEM Shenzhen chassis to the suckers. They do not eat their own dog food. Or perhaps, less cynically, there's just too few people like me and even they'll rather get a good-enough Macbook.

jcarrano 3y ago

Why do they include an optical drive? It's not even optional.

primis 3y ago

This is a cool laptop but after looking it over I hope ThinkPenguin decides to sell replacement batteries (since they are removable) and perhaps even a higher capacity one that sticks out the back a bit. Also the inclusion of a B key M.2 is great for say, an LTE modem, but the page makes no mention if they wired a SIM card slot up to it. Another thing I wish was an option would be to configure without a wifi module, since not everyone is focused on libre firmware, it'd be nice to throw a generic wifi+bt module in there, rather than have to rely on an external bluetooth dongle. I know I can just swap it out later, but that's sunken cost and e-waste for the built in unit which kind of stinks. EDIT: I checked around their shop, they do sell replacement batteries for $109, but I still wish they sold an extended cell variant like laptops did 10 years ago.

hnbear 3y ago

I’m deeply suspicious of anywhere trying to cross-sell me VPNs. The commentary around “traditional” efficiency with trackpads - after using the latest Apple trackpads everything else is awful. I have no good memories of trackpads of day of yore either. The MacBook trackpad is better without physical buttons. The haptics are so good I can’t tell it’s not physical, and it’s one fewer physical thing to break. “SSD is a new tech”? Really? Coupled with actual spinning drives as options, which are awful in laptops given they’re moving parts. I wish I could opt out of the power adaptor. I have a 150W GAN power brick on my desk and in my bag that can charge my iPad Pro, MacBook Pro, Carbon X1, etc all without fuss. Apple Watch, iPhone too with the right cables. Everything USB-C all the time, please. Not some power brick from the 90s with a barrel. No Bluetooth just seems like a weird choice. Awful screen. A webcam cover gets a bullet? Those are 5 for $10 on Amazon. Seems a weird thing to call out and focus on. I can’t remember the last time I used or burnt a CD or DVD. USB drives are so much more flexible with vastly higher capacities and speeds. This whole laptop reads as “the laptop you wanted in the 90s, here today in 2023”.

apricot 3y ago

A USB 2.0 port? 47 Wh battery? 4.4 lb? What is this, 2010?

pwr22 3y ago

> While the T4 is thin and light at just .97 inches thick and 4.63 lbs it still boasts a DVD-RW drive (w/ opt. for Blu-ray) It's an inch thick and weighs over two kilos. That's not really thin or light...

pmontra 3y ago

Good things: - up to 64 GB RAM - both M2 NVME SSD and a SATA slot, so I could add my current SATA SSD. - 2 kg - 10/100/1000 Ethernet - 5 USB ports, mixed types - VGA (maybe much needed anymore but OK) - HDMI - headphone/mic jack - mic only jack (but why another one?) - webcam on top of the screen - card reader - pretty inexpensive Bad things: - Intel i5 only - only 2 mouse buttons but this is a Linux laptop: it must have 3. Maybe they can't find any company building 3 mouse buttons touchpads. - it has a numberpad, which is standard on 15" laptops, but the keyboard is offcenter with the screen. - US keyboard only, but I could live with that if it was the only bad thing. My fingers remember where keys are. Neutral - 1080p 16:9 is OKish for me. 16:10 or 16:12 (that is 4:3 [1]) would be better. Unknowns: - how easy is it to open and replace parts? - is RAM soldered or replaceable? Apparently it's replaceable because they write that you can "upgrade later". - what's up with "Most USB data transfer cables on the market include a proprietary flash component that interferes with their usability. With our USB data transfer cable no such component exists" at $59.99? Weirdness: - an optical drive? Well, maybe that could turn into an extra slot for a SSD, with a caddy. - bluetooth No Thanks? Compared to "No SATA Drive" or the several "Select" menus, is that a statement against bluetooth? - the two "censored" European AC Adapters. - the VPN service, almost suspicious. [1] Remember that 16:9 is 4:2.25. We used to have 4:3 screens even wider than the horizontal 36 cm of most current 15" laptops. They shortened our screens.

endorphine 3y ago
Why is i5-only a con? I heard that for ThinkPads at least, the i7 would have lower battery life for no significant gain. Not sure if that's true
- pmontra 3y ago
  My current laptop is an i7. It's a 4th gen i7 so a 13th gen i5 is probably better but I'd like to stay on i7. I don't care much about battery life, there is at least a wall socket everywhere I work at home.
activiation 3y ago
> only 2 mouse buttons but this is a Linux laptop: it must have 3. Maybe they can't find any company building 3 mouse buttons touchpads. Isn't pushing 2 buttons at the same time on a 2-button mouse the same as pushing the third button on a 3 button mouse?

t0astbread 3y ago

It's probably an insignificant detail but why do some options in the AC adapter category contain the word "[censored]"? [censored] - Plug Type "Europlug" (CEE 7/16) [censored] & [censored] ("UK" style) - Plug Type G Edit: Nevermind, somebody else beat me to it and I just didn't scroll down far enough: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36293069 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36293069

cazum 3y ago

>The laptop includes a properly supported wifi card that isn’t hampered by a dysfunctional antenna solution that has become standard in most laptops for a while now. The antennas remain in the traditional and optimal location just behind the screen so your wifi performance isn’t impeded by the base of the laptop. Is this actually solving a problem anyone has ever had? I pay a lot of attention to the laptop market and I've never heard of internal "antenna placement" being an issue before.

argsnd 3y ago

One thing I've never understood is the FSF opposition to microcode and loadable firmware blobs. You're running proprietary hardware that clearly uses some firmware, what do you get out of insisting that the firmware is burned in at the factory and completely unmodifiable/updatable?

activiation 3y ago

Wow the price is surprisingly low.

deleted 3y ago

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dlqx 3y ago

Is it using libreboot?

opan 3y ago

Will this really work well out of the box with distros using linux-libre, such as Guix System? I believe every Intel iGPU after Haswell depends on binary blobs. I also agree with several of the complaints others have made. Three mouse buttons is a must. I'd also prefer a trackball or pointing stick to a trackpad. I think x86 is on its way out, and the issues of Intel ME and AMD PSP have made it not ideal for the likely audience of this laptop for quite some time. I wonder why they haven't gone with ARM or RISC-V like the MNT Reform or Pinebook Pro.