3 ms·

> "[...] we are crushing ourselves with the accumulated complexity we’ve piled on top of bad foundations [...]" The same could be said about plain HTML/CSS tho

> "[...] we are crushing ourselves with the accumulated complexity we’ve piled on top of bad foundations [...]" The same could be said about plain HTML/CSS though. I think the author is correct overall and I don't really see improvement on the horizon. WebAssembly, while great that it exists, can morph browsers into some poor mans virtual operating system and this can lead to a less open web. We already see more closed Platforms like Discord. I use it too, the product is completely fine, but it sucks in information that isn't availble on the open net if you don't go through the platform. Some communities exclusively use it and they get little discoverability through web searches. Sure, this isn't really related to Javascript/Webassembly, just a development I fear will increase and which could be accelerated with different approaches to languages. A front-end scripting language available in every browser is very, very useful. I think few new languages could replace it here, I don't know of any at least. And I think a lot of flexibility is lost if you begin to transpile anthing into Javascript. Granted, for large projects it is pretty much a requirement to do so at some point.

smole 3y ago
Worse than trying to replace it entirely is that you just end up with two implementations that need to be maintained.
chii 3y ago
> [closed platforms] will increase and which could be accelerated with different approaches to languages. the business incentive is towards such closed platforms - data and platform ownership has value after all. It makes zero sense for a business to keep a platform open and potentially help a competitor.
- raxxorraxor 3y ago
  I disagree, it would be in their interest to somehow gap that border in the long run, although I wouldn't know an easy way to achieve this. Its users often tend to not understand the repercussions in my opinion and that is true even for software developers. Sure, an exchange on Discord is easy and personal, you get ample support from your supporters and that can really propel projects to the next level. But as I said, all the knowledge from these exchanges is lost for the net. The user that comes 2 years later won't see these exchanges and not even you product in some cases. I would always suggest to also use some kind of forum or knowledge base. Discord has APIs to make such content discoverable as well in theory. I use the platform too, it shouldn't be seen as an indictment for the Discord developers at all. On the contrary they offer an extremely useful service and in most cases completely for free and it shows that they care for the platform. But just as things are, we have it as something separate to the usual web and I believe that some communities suffer if they do not provide alternative venues.
diego_sandoval 3y ago
> The same could be said about plain HTML/CSS though. Genuine question: How much of the complexity of working with HTML/CSS is unnecessary and how much is inherent to the problem they solve? Is it as bad as with Javascript? I would say that we, for the most part, have a very clear idea of how we could (theoretically) replace Javascript with something much better. I don't know of alternative layout languages, so I don't know how good CSS is in comparison. And what could we replace HTML with? My general appreciation, from my ignorance, is that they are not that bad.
- Latty 3y ago
  Seriously, every time people complain about CSS and HTML I think about how much work it is to support all the localisation and layout stuff they do. Managing massively different sized screens as elegantly as them is hard and yeah, it's still not that elegant or easy, but I haven't used anything better that didn't sacrifice something for it.
  - geektips 3y ago
    Absolutely, I totally agree. Layout development has gotten a lot better with Flexbox, Grid, and the new Container Queries.
  - SenHeng 3y ago
    Every time I have to build a UI in canvas, I yearn for all the conveniences CSS and the DOM provide. Do people even realise how much trouble it is to make text wrap within a given space?
    - Solvency 3y ago
      It is, but yet thousands of videogames have been doing this for decades...
      - SenHeng 3y ago
        And most games will use an engine like Unity or Unreal so they don't have to re-invent the wheel. HTML and CSS may not be perfect, but they've been battle tested for a good 30 years and have had improvements added. No need to re-invent that wheel.
stavros 3y ago
Discoverability for communities is a really good point. I wonder if any chat software exists that allows easy/good indexing by search engines.
yxre 3y ago
Nobody will ever agree on an alternative. And, none of the attempted alternatives have ever taken off because the velocity of javascript's incrementalism is far greater than the velocity of any new shiny thing. JS has the weight of the largest corporations in the world behind it that don't want to lose their investments

smole 3y ago

Worse than trying to replace it entirely is that you just end up with two implementations that need to be maintained.

chii 3y ago

> [closed platforms] will increase and which could be accelerated with different approaches to languages. the business incentive is towards such closed platforms - data and platform ownership has value after all. It makes zero sense for a business to keep a platform open and potentially help a competitor.

raxxorraxor 3y ago
I disagree, it would be in their interest to somehow gap that border in the long run, although I wouldn't know an easy way to achieve this. Its users often tend to not understand the repercussions in my opinion and that is true even for software developers. Sure, an exchange on Discord is easy and personal, you get ample support from your supporters and that can really propel projects to the next level. But as I said, all the knowledge from these exchanges is lost for the net. The user that comes 2 years later won't see these exchanges and not even you product in some cases. I would always suggest to also use some kind of forum or knowledge base. Discord has APIs to make such content discoverable as well in theory. I use the platform too, it shouldn't be seen as an indictment for the Discord developers at all. On the contrary they offer an extremely useful service and in most cases completely for free and it shows that they care for the platform. But just as things are, we have it as something separate to the usual web and I believe that some communities suffer if they do not provide alternative venues.

diego_sandoval 3y ago

> The same could be said about plain HTML/CSS though. Genuine question: How much of the complexity of working with HTML/CSS is unnecessary and how much is inherent to the problem they solve? Is it as bad as with Javascript? I would say that we, for the most part, have a very clear idea of how we could (theoretically) replace Javascript with something much better. I don't know of alternative layout languages, so I don't know how good CSS is in comparison. And what could we replace HTML with? My general appreciation, from my ignorance, is that they are not that bad.

Latty 3y ago
Seriously, every time people complain about CSS and HTML I think about how much work it is to support all the localisation and layout stuff they do. Managing massively different sized screens as elegantly as them is hard and yeah, it's still not that elegant or easy, but I haven't used anything better that didn't sacrifice something for it.
- geektips 3y ago
  Absolutely, I totally agree. Layout development has gotten a lot better with Flexbox, Grid, and the new Container Queries.
- SenHeng 3y ago
  Every time I have to build a UI in canvas, I yearn for all the conveniences CSS and the DOM provide. Do people even realise how much trouble it is to make text wrap within a given space?
  - Solvency 3y ago
    It is, but yet thousands of videogames have been doing this for decades...
    - SenHeng 3y ago
      And most games will use an engine like Unity or Unreal so they don't have to re-invent the wheel. HTML and CSS may not be perfect, but they've been battle tested for a good 30 years and have had improvements added. No need to re-invent that wheel.

stavros 3y ago

Discoverability for communities is a really good point. I wonder if any chat software exists that allows easy/good indexing by search engines.

yxre 3y ago

Nobody will ever agree on an alternative. And, none of the attempted alternatives have ever taken off because the velocity of javascript's incrementalism is far greater than the velocity of any new shiny thing. JS has the weight of the largest corporations in the world behind it that don't want to lose their investments