6 ms·

Back in 2015/2016 parts of the exam got leaked on Facebook and resulted in a lot (>10,000) students having to redo the exams because of it. Ever since then inte

Back in 2015/2016 parts of the exam got leaked on Facebook and resulted in a lot (>10,000) students having to redo the exams because of it. Ever since then internet restrictions come around the bac and everyone is aware and just plans around it. I had a family member who had to retake it and they were beyond furious. Prepping to take their bac was a big undertaking and very stressful. I don't agree with the internet shutoff, but I can understand where it's coming from and hope that they figure out a better way to solve the underlying problem.

lannisterstark 3y ago
and yet, shutdowns like these never happen in actual democratic nations. Even during massive protests/terrorist attacks, nothing happens because we realize that information is important.
- ts-alg1123 3y ago
  I'm not disagreeing with you, as the ability to communicate and disseminate information freely is extremely vital. However I don't think there's a comparable milestone/goal/event in the west as to the bac in Algeria. It is a big deal for them: parties are thrown if you pass, people sob if they don't. Familial expectations often overwhelm the students. Sure we have stuff like SAT/ACT, and some people place emphasis on those, but not to the extent or reach as over there. I don't want to touch on the merits of the exam as a whole, but rather just state that this exam is a big deal to a majority of people over there and they view the shutoff as a necessary inconvenience.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
    In Spain we have a similar exam that all students must pass to access university, and where the grade decides which degrees you can study. It's also a pretty big deal, maybe not for everyone but at least for people who want to study degrees with high demand, like medicine. We don't cut the internet.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      South Korea and China have such things, although they don’t cut off the internet, they might restrict flights and driving during those times to cut down on noise and such. See https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/11/12/455708201/even-the-planes-stop-flying-for-south-koreas-national-exam-day https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/11/12/455708201/...
  - zvmaz 3y ago
    > and they view the shutoff as a necessary inconvenience. Who views the shutoff as a necessary inconvenience? The current president has promised to stop such cuts [1] as they are widely frowned upon, but it did not stop. [1] https://radio-m.net/coupure-dinternet-durant-le-bac-les-promesses-non-tenues-de-tebboune-et-belabed/ https://radio-m.net/coupure-dinternet-durant-le-bac-les-prom...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- duxup 3y ago
  An independent judiciary and strong institutions and such matters. Politicians, people in power really do ask “is this legal?”.
- crearo 3y ago
  False, India the largest democracy tops the list of Internet outages. https://www.dw.com/en/india-internet-shutdown-capital-of-the-world/a-64997062 https://www.dw.com/en/india-internet-shutdown-capital-of-the...
  - eldaisfish 3y ago
    India is far from an "actual" democracy and is often classed as a flawed democracy. Their voting system is among the best, most far-reaching and most fair in the world but their quality of candidates, policies etc are far from good. Importantly, India is increasingly imposing the whims of the majority on her minorities, something any good democracy would try to avoid.
    - throwaway_jun23 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - lannisterstark 3y ago
    >False, India the largest democracy tops the list of Internet outages I'm well aware, given I am indian lol. Notice how I said "Even during massive protests/terrorist attacks, nothing happens" in the said actual democracies? India doesn't follow that and shuts down internet on whim, during exams, protests, what have you. India is hardly an 'actual democratic nation.' As an Indian, I would have thought I was making it clearer. --- In case that wasn't clear enough, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36285784 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36285784 >>lol India does the same thing. Hell they do it for 'protests' as well. Kashmir for the longest time had 2G/GPRS/EDGE mobile data service at best. Why? Because they could protest. They did the same for that farmers strike. >>...funny what authoritarian governments use as a pretense to stay in power. How dare someone speak out against them and organize a protest. No, no internet for you.
    - known 3y ago
      [dead]
- perihelions 3y ago
  Nothing happens *yet*. The law's already on the books, like a loaded Chekov's gun: America's executive has plenary authority to nuke the internet for any "emergency" the incumbent gerontocrat deems fit to declare. (See [0]). If it isn't happening every day, well, my interpretation is that that's because the thought hasn't *yet* occurred to our insane political class, to abuse this horrific power for entertainment. (When it does start happening, it'll be obvious in hindsight we should never have let it get that far. Not that we'll be able to complain much). [0] https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/22/representatives-propose-bill-limiting-presidential-internet-kill-switch/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/22/representatives-propose-bi... ("Representatives propose bill limiting presidential internet ‘kill switch’" [2020])
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    The executive branch can shutoff the internet, but since they can’t nuke the following election, they would be MAD to do so. A lot of powers aren’t exercised simply because our elections are still somewhat fair.
  - lannisterstark 3y ago
    >When it does start happening, it'll be obvious in hindsight we should never have let it get that far Oh I agree. We've already let our civil rights go in the gutter. Although I do think it'll be political suicide for whoever does it, unless you're also holding an iron grip on power at that point.
- causality0 3y ago
  The UK and US have both used internet shutdowns as a weapon against disobedient citizens: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-tube-wifi-down-internet-not-working-underground-protest-extinction-rebellion-a8873681.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-tube-... https://www.wired.com/2011/08/subway-internet-shuttering/ https://www.wired.com/2011/08/subway-internet-shuttering/
  - lannisterstark 3y ago
    Hard to categorize a couple of isolated incidents that were widely criticized and were legally under fire in the US as "US does it too." In the link you linked, it was BART who did it, not the "US." the USA is 50 countries(with limited foreign diplomacy) masquerading as one, and BART's poor decision to do so hardly makes it commonplace.
    - causality0 3y ago
      these never happen in actual democratic nations. Even during massive protests/terrorist attacks, nothing happens I'm sure the shutdowns in India are "widely criticized" as well. Nobody went to prison for shutting down service and nobody even lost their job. it was BART who did it, not the "US." BART is operated by part of the United States government. Its board of directors are elected positions and it operates its own police force.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> can understand where it's coming from and hope that they figure out a better way to solve the underlying problem The underlying problem is using this exam to create the illusion of meritocracy.
- Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
  As opposed to what? Admitting students based on parents' money like in the US? Pure meritocracy doesn't exist anywhere, not even close, but nationwide exams do approach it more than other alternatives.
  - godelski 3y ago
    That's not the US system. It is definitely something abused within the US system but to call it the norm is ludicrous: realistically most families can't buy the university a new building (such a "buy in" also is not particularly unique to the US nor uncommon in rich, middle, or low income countries). Most people get in based on merits, but merits are fuzzy and incredibly difficult to measure. All measures of merits can be exploited and hacked as measures are only ever a guide(see Goodhart). Pure meritocracy doesn't exist because it cannot exist. You don't get closer to that meritocratic goal by setting up more bottlenecks or strict standards, but rather by recognizing the chaos and messiness of the real world: that measurements come with noise. You should have measurement, but it needs to be deeply ingrained that measurements are noisy.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > nationwide exams do approach it more than other alternatives Single-shot standardized exams are well documented at not working. It's a top-down call for a commoditised body of knowledge expressed through a skill that can and is gamed. It's illusory because you could get approximately the same results with a random-number memorization contest or board game. It's an artificial bottleneck designed to filter, almost nothing more. (In fact, by forcing this commoditization you starve the labour force of chance at meaningful early differentiation.) You tend to find these tests deployed and celebrated in systems with a decidedly non-meritocratic political core, in large part to distract from the fact that the rulers' kids' scores don't matter. I say this, by the way, as someone who excels at tests. And I'm not criticizing examination broadly.

lannisterstark 3y ago

and yet, shutdowns like these never happen in actual democratic nations. Even during massive protests/terrorist attacks, nothing happens because we realize that information is important.

ts-alg1123 3y ago
I'm not disagreeing with you, as the ability to communicate and disseminate information freely is extremely vital. However I don't think there's a comparable milestone/goal/event in the west as to the bac in Algeria. It is a big deal for them: parties are thrown if you pass, people sob if they don't. Familial expectations often overwhelm the students. Sure we have stuff like SAT/ACT, and some people place emphasis on those, but not to the extent or reach as over there. I don't want to touch on the merits of the exam as a whole, but rather just state that this exam is a big deal to a majority of people over there and they view the shutoff as a necessary inconvenience.
- Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
  In Spain we have a similar exam that all students must pass to access university, and where the grade decides which degrees you can study. It's also a pretty big deal, maybe not for everyone but at least for people who want to study degrees with high demand, like medicine. We don't cut the internet.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    South Korea and China have such things, although they don’t cut off the internet, they might restrict flights and driving during those times to cut down on noise and such. See https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/11/12/455708201/even-the-planes-stop-flying-for-south-koreas-national-exam-day https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/11/12/455708201/...
- zvmaz 3y ago
  > and they view the shutoff as a necessary inconvenience. Who views the shutoff as a necessary inconvenience? The current president has promised to stop such cuts [1] as they are widely frowned upon, but it did not stop. [1] https://radio-m.net/coupure-dinternet-durant-le-bac-les-promesses-non-tenues-de-tebboune-et-belabed/ https://radio-m.net/coupure-dinternet-durant-le-bac-les-prom...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
duxup 3y ago
An independent judiciary and strong institutions and such matters. Politicians, people in power really do ask “is this legal?”.
crearo 3y ago
False, India the largest democracy tops the list of Internet outages. https://www.dw.com/en/india-internet-shutdown-capital-of-the-world/a-64997062 https://www.dw.com/en/india-internet-shutdown-capital-of-the...
- eldaisfish 3y ago
  India is far from an "actual" democracy and is often classed as a flawed democracy. Their voting system is among the best, most far-reaching and most fair in the world but their quality of candidates, policies etc are far from good. Importantly, India is increasingly imposing the whims of the majority on her minorities, something any good democracy would try to avoid.
  - throwaway_jun23 3y ago
    [flagged]
- lannisterstark 3y ago
  >False, India the largest democracy tops the list of Internet outages I'm well aware, given I am indian lol. Notice how I said "Even during massive protests/terrorist attacks, nothing happens" in the said actual democracies? India doesn't follow that and shuts down internet on whim, during exams, protests, what have you. India is hardly an 'actual democratic nation.' As an Indian, I would have thought I was making it clearer. --- In case that wasn't clear enough, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36285784 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36285784 >>lol India does the same thing. Hell they do it for 'protests' as well. Kashmir for the longest time had 2G/GPRS/EDGE mobile data service at best. Why? Because they could protest. They did the same for that farmers strike. >>...funny what authoritarian governments use as a pretense to stay in power. How dare someone speak out against them and organize a protest. No, no internet for you.
  - known 3y ago
    [dead]
perihelions 3y ago
Nothing happens *yet*. The law's already on the books, like a loaded Chekov's gun: America's executive has plenary authority to nuke the internet for any "emergency" the incumbent gerontocrat deems fit to declare. (See [0]). If it isn't happening every day, well, my interpretation is that that's because the thought hasn't *yet* occurred to our insane political class, to abuse this horrific power for entertainment. (When it does start happening, it'll be obvious in hindsight we should never have let it get that far. Not that we'll be able to complain much). [0] https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/22/representatives-propose-bill-limiting-presidential-internet-kill-switch/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/22/representatives-propose-bi... ("Representatives propose bill limiting presidential internet ‘kill switch’" [2020])
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  The executive branch can shutoff the internet, but since they can’t nuke the following election, they would be MAD to do so. A lot of powers aren’t exercised simply because our elections are still somewhat fair.
- lannisterstark 3y ago
  >When it does start happening, it'll be obvious in hindsight we should never have let it get that far Oh I agree. We've already let our civil rights go in the gutter. Although I do think it'll be political suicide for whoever does it, unless you're also holding an iron grip on power at that point.
causality0 3y ago
The UK and US have both used internet shutdowns as a weapon against disobedient citizens: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-tube-wifi-down-internet-not-working-underground-protest-extinction-rebellion-a8873681.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-tube-... https://www.wired.com/2011/08/subway-internet-shuttering/ https://www.wired.com/2011/08/subway-internet-shuttering/
- lannisterstark 3y ago
  Hard to categorize a couple of isolated incidents that were widely criticized and were legally under fire in the US as "US does it too." In the link you linked, it was BART who did it, not the "US." the USA is 50 countries(with limited foreign diplomacy) masquerading as one, and BART's poor decision to do so hardly makes it commonplace.
  - causality0 3y ago
    these never happen in actual democratic nations. Even during massive protests/terrorist attacks, nothing happens I'm sure the shutdowns in India are "widely criticized" as well. Nobody went to prison for shutting down service and nobody even lost their job. it was BART who did it, not the "US." BART is operated by part of the United States government. Its board of directors are elected positions and it operates its own police force.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> can understand where it's coming from and hope that they figure out a better way to solve the underlying problem The underlying problem is using this exam to create the illusion of meritocracy.

Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
As opposed to what? Admitting students based on parents' money like in the US? Pure meritocracy doesn't exist anywhere, not even close, but nationwide exams do approach it more than other alternatives.
- godelski 3y ago
  That's not the US system. It is definitely something abused within the US system but to call it the norm is ludicrous: realistically most families can't buy the university a new building (such a "buy in" also is not particularly unique to the US nor uncommon in rich, middle, or low income countries). Most people get in based on merits, but merits are fuzzy and incredibly difficult to measure. All measures of merits can be exploited and hacked as measures are only ever a guide(see Goodhart). Pure meritocracy doesn't exist because it cannot exist. You don't get closer to that meritocratic goal by setting up more bottlenecks or strict standards, but rather by recognizing the chaos and messiness of the real world: that measurements come with noise. You should have measurement, but it needs to be deeply ingrained that measurements are noisy.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > nationwide exams do approach it more than other alternatives Single-shot standardized exams are well documented at not working. It's a top-down call for a commoditised body of knowledge expressed through a skill that can and is gamed. It's illusory because you could get approximately the same results with a random-number memorization contest or board game. It's an artificial bottleneck designed to filter, almost nothing more. (In fact, by forcing this commoditization you starve the labour force of chance at meaningful early differentiation.) You tend to find these tests deployed and celebrated in systems with a decidedly non-meritocratic political core, in large part to distract from the fact that the rulers' kids' scores don't matter. I say this, by the way, as someone who excels at tests. And I'm not criticizing examination broadly.