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What's the endgame here? Why even turn the subs back on? The admins have made their intentions clear enough, I think.

guerrilla 3y ago
It's a demonstration of power; a sampler. This is a common strategy. You want to show them that you have the power so that serious negotiations can begin anew without disrupting the service you want to provide.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  What power? Reddit can just takeover the subs and turn them back on.
  - guerrilla 3y ago
    The power of an organize and commit to a strike obviously. Reddit is nothing without mods. Going private is, as I said, just a sampler. The endgame would be for the mods to just leave if Reddit doesn't change course. This signals that that is a definite possibility since they've shown a. their unanimity of objection b. their ability to organize and c. their commitment to action.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    And do they want to put in the same effort to curating those communities as the moderators there've just overruled? Communities can thrive or fail depending on who is in charge. (What happened with regard to the mod banning an artist because they thought their art looked like it came from an AI? Last I heard the artist was able to show their workflow but the mod was unwilling to back down…)
    - 0xr0kk3r 3y ago
      They'll just put the same effort in that Twitter does. Problem solved. No one has left twitter, despite Elon's tantrums. Do you really think CEOs care when their site has so much momentum and mods can be replaced in a snap?
      - foota 3y ago
        Twitter and reddit are substantially different though.
      - x86x87 3y ago
        Are you serious? Twitter is in shambles right now. Ads were pulled (59% revenue lost) and musk is throwing a hissy fit he does not want to pay the GCP bill and rent on the office space. Twitter is the walking dead
        0xr0kk3r 3y ago
        That's literally my point. CEOs don't care. Reddit is following suit. Reddit will become "a shambles". Although I think my sarcasm needs work.
        jachee 3y ago
        If you’re being sarcastic in text, throw us a `/s`.
        ben_w 3y ago
        Yeeeas, it really wasn't clear and still kinda looks you were suggesting the board would be fine with a 2/3rds reduction in their estimated value right before an IPO.
    - macintux 3y ago
      They just have to keep the communities viable until the IPO; I'm sure they can find new moderators who are unsympathetic to the strike to keep the lights on that long.
    - yanderekko 3y ago
      I expect that disrupting the powermod cabal would be a net positive for the site.
      - dotnet00 3y ago
        Most of the powermods seem to be opposing this blackout.
    - spiralx 3y ago
      Didn't both KotukuInAction and TheDonald get shut down by the sub's original creators due to them going off the rails and then forcibly re-opened by the admins and handed over to new moderators who were happy with the massive growth in a direction the original owner never intended and actively did not want?
      - ben_w 3y ago
        I wouldn't know, but the question is more "can/will they do this to order?" rather than "can it ever be done?"
      - isaacremuant 3y ago
        No. TD was quarantined under false pretenses (ironic ones too, since a very pro police sub was accused of being anti police) and then basically killed while pretending it was alive. KIA is alive but heavily muzzled by admins on some topics such as a prohibition to mention trans in any shape or form. The mod takeover was because the original founder who didn't use the site took over it once and destroyed it something. There's been other cases where founders wreck havoc after years of not being active and were removed.
        CyberDildonics 3y ago
        Why get upset about reddit? There are places where you can say whatever you can be as toxic as you want, spread misinformation and defend putin, like voat.
  - BaseballPhysics 3y ago
    And then who will moderate them? Does Reddit have 18,000 employees ready to take over? Or a bunch of scans waiting in the wings?
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      Surely there is enough people who would apply to take position of power in subreddit. And plenty of them would ignore any principles for that power.
      - BaseballPhysics 3y ago
        I think you overestimate the number of people willing to take on that job. The vast majority of people lurk. Of those who are active, most just comment. Of the remainder, most just post. It's a vanishingly small group who actually want to moderate given the time commitment and all the headaches involved.
        unclekev 3y ago
        > vast majority > Of those who are active, most just comment You don't need the 'vast majority' or 'most'. You just need a few. > It's a vanishingly small group who actually want to moderate Not really, more people thank you seem to think are desperate for any sort of internet power.
        BaseballPhysics 3y ago
        Valid point, you may be right, there may be a lot of potential mods out there if you're not worried about quality. But Reddit doesn't need shitty mods. They need good mods. Shitty mods kill communities.
  - davewritescode 3y ago
    Yes but unless they’re well moderated they’ll turn to crap. There’s a lot of moderators out there moderating by hand and using bots to run some of the bigger subreddits, much like IRC. Without those bots having access to the APIs, that job gets harder and it’s less likely to be done well. Personally I think Steve Huffman is the fall guy here and this is coming from the money people who have zero interest in where Reddit is beyond 6 months after the IPO. Reddit also has a history putting people in place to make controversial decisions only to fire them months later as appeasement to their community. Ellen Pao was the most recent example.
    - x86x87 3y ago
      Lol. What IPO? Do you think anyone is buying reddit stock after this clusterfuck?
      - davewritescode 3y ago
        I'm not saying it's a good idea to IPO but if Reddit shows a 25% increase in ad impressions and minimal loss of users this might end up being better. Personally, if I were in charge with Reddit I'd go for an approach that required 3rd party clients to show ads that come back from Reddit's APIs and allow users to opt-out of adds for a small monthly fee directly from the user or even from the app developers who choose to incorporate it into their fee structure. Apps who don't comply get banned. The approach Reddit is going for is stupid and is burning goodwill earned over more than a decade.
    - bredren 3y ago
      I also think the CEO is a scapegoat. I’d argue that Huffman showed more courage than Elon did, though. That said, Huffman’s handling of this was bumbling at best. It demonstrated a failure to understand his own users or the culture of the site. For that alone, he should go. But there are plenty of other reasons company leadership has failed its community, particularly it’s unpaid workers moderating content.
bhaak 3y ago
It doesn't make sense to go all-in all at once. You need to have leverage afterwards as well. Also you have to think about the media coverage. This way you have two times the possible media coverage instead of just once and then everybody forgets about it.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
The endgame should simply be: 1. Reddit management gets their head out of their asses and negotiates a better change to API fees and structure. Throughout this whole ordeal everyone else (Apollo dev, mods, etc.) has made extremely reasonable points, but Reddit management seems to be gaslighting and arguing in bad faith at every turn. 2. If management doesn't change, Reddit should die. Why should all these mods donate huge amounts of time to a platform that disrespects them at every turn?
- x86x87 3y ago
  Ideally yes, but the opposite is going to happen. They're gonna push their heads so far their asses they're gonna hit the stomach. CEO and everyone that though this is the way to monetize need to go.
- breadsniffer01 3y ago
  Mods get free API usage. It’s only for 3rd party apps. It seems the Apollo dev has been throwing around some misinformation.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    > It seems the Apollo dev has been throwing around some misinformation. Please point out, specifically, where he has done this. Otherwise, STFU. To be clear, it's not like I've been following every one of his posts, so it's quite possible he said things that aren't accurate. So far, though, I've seen nothing but vague accusations against Christian, and when he did call bullshit and brought the receipts to back it up, u/spez said he was "leaking a private call". Queen please, he libeled Christian and then when Christian brought evidence to prove him wrong he complained!! What an asshat.
    - CamelCaseName 3y ago
      1. He said he spends $166 / 50 million Imgur API requests. He must have a sweetheart deal because I see the prices at $3,333 / 50 million API requests (and if you go above that, it gets crazy expensive FAST) 2. Moderator actions are exempt from the API charges... But I think this decision was made after things had blown up.
dharmab 3y ago
Reddit has taken over "abandoned" subreddits in the past and replaced the moderation teams. By making this temporary, the moderators of topic-based subreddits can continue to organize their communities, including organized migration to new places like Discord.
- x86x87 3y ago
  Subs are not some abstract things where you just slap a new mod on and it's all fine. You may be abke to do this in extreme cases but there is no way this works for thousands of subs
  - MostlyStable 3y ago
    Yeah, I do honestly think that that would be the only way this works. If the majority of mods were just like "yup, we'll shut it down and leave", forcing reddit to replace _large_ swaths of moderation, things could get ugly for them. As it is, as far as I have seen, very few subs are committing to being permanently closed, and Reddit will only boot mods from a _very_ small number of subs over a 2 day closure, so they don't have to find much replacement talent. Right now, admins will probably replace a few dozens of mods, and then the rest of the site will be back in 2 days, and nothing will change.
    - chx 3y ago
      That number is growing by the hour and we shall see what happens on the 14th. There's not much stopping the participating subs from continuing indefinitely. If it's not declared as infinite, it's even harder to justify replacing them. For example, /r/askhistorians is going private for 48h and reopens readonly indefinitely after. /r/pathofexile as far as I understand won't be going private but goes readonly once again indefinitely. etc
      - unclekev 3y ago
        > /r/askhistorians is going private for 48h and reopens readonly indefinitely after. /r/pathofexile as far as I understand won't be going private but goes readonly once again indefinitely. Wow, that'll really show them who's boss! /s
none_to_remain 3y ago
Eventually people would just start replacement subreddits and the powermods would be left with jack shit

It's a demonstration of power; a sampler. This is a common strategy. You want to show them that you have the power so that serious negotiations can begin anew without disrupting the service you want to provide.

candiddevmike 3y ago
What power? Reddit can just takeover the subs and turn them back on.
- guerrilla 3y ago
  The power of an organize and commit to a strike obviously. Reddit is nothing without mods. Going private is, as I said, just a sampler. The endgame would be for the mods to just leave if Reddit doesn't change course. This signals that that is a definite possibility since they've shown a. their unanimity of objection b. their ability to organize and c. their commitment to action.
- ben_w 3y ago
  And do they want to put in the same effort to curating those communities as the moderators there've just overruled? Communities can thrive or fail depending on who is in charge. (What happened with regard to the mod banning an artist because they thought their art looked like it came from an AI? Last I heard the artist was able to show their workflow but the mod was unwilling to back down…)
  - 0xr0kk3r 3y ago
    They'll just put the same effort in that Twitter does. Problem solved. No one has left twitter, despite Elon's tantrums. Do you really think CEOs care when their site has so much momentum and mods can be replaced in a snap?
    - foota 3y ago
      Twitter and reddit are substantially different though.
    - x86x87 3y ago
      Are you serious? Twitter is in shambles right now. Ads were pulled (59% revenue lost) and musk is throwing a hissy fit he does not want to pay the GCP bill and rent on the office space. Twitter is the walking dead
      - 0xr0kk3r 3y ago
        That's literally my point. CEOs don't care. Reddit is following suit. Reddit will become "a shambles". Although I think my sarcasm needs work.
        jachee 3y ago
        If you’re being sarcastic in text, throw us a `/s`.
        ben_w 3y ago
        Yeeeas, it really wasn't clear and still kinda looks you were suggesting the board would be fine with a 2/3rds reduction in their estimated value right before an IPO.
  - macintux 3y ago
    They just have to keep the communities viable until the IPO; I'm sure they can find new moderators who are unsympathetic to the strike to keep the lights on that long.
  - yanderekko 3y ago
    I expect that disrupting the powermod cabal would be a net positive for the site.
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      Most of the powermods seem to be opposing this blackout.
  - spiralx 3y ago
    Didn't both KotukuInAction and TheDonald get shut down by the sub's original creators due to them going off the rails and then forcibly re-opened by the admins and handed over to new moderators who were happy with the massive growth in a direction the original owner never intended and actively did not want?
    - ben_w 3y ago
      I wouldn't know, but the question is more "can/will they do this to order?" rather than "can it ever be done?"
    - isaacremuant 3y ago
      No. TD was quarantined under false pretenses (ironic ones too, since a very pro police sub was accused of being anti police) and then basically killed while pretending it was alive. KIA is alive but heavily muzzled by admins on some topics such as a prohibition to mention trans in any shape or form. The mod takeover was because the original founder who didn't use the site took over it once and destroyed it something. There's been other cases where founders wreck havoc after years of not being active and were removed.
      - CyberDildonics 3y ago
        Why get upset about reddit? There are places where you can say whatever you can be as toxic as you want, spread misinformation and defend putin, like voat.
- BaseballPhysics 3y ago
  And then who will moderate them? Does Reddit have 18,000 employees ready to take over? Or a bunch of scans waiting in the wings?
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    Surely there is enough people who would apply to take position of power in subreddit. And plenty of them would ignore any principles for that power.
    - BaseballPhysics 3y ago
      I think you overestimate the number of people willing to take on that job. The vast majority of people lurk. Of those who are active, most just comment. Of the remainder, most just post. It's a vanishingly small group who actually want to moderate given the time commitment and all the headaches involved.
      - unclekev 3y ago
        > vast majority > Of those who are active, most just comment You don't need the 'vast majority' or 'most'. You just need a few. > It's a vanishingly small group who actually want to moderate Not really, more people thank you seem to think are desperate for any sort of internet power.
        BaseballPhysics 3y ago
        Valid point, you may be right, there may be a lot of potential mods out there if you're not worried about quality. But Reddit doesn't need shitty mods. They need good mods. Shitty mods kill communities.
- davewritescode 3y ago
  Yes but unless they’re well moderated they’ll turn to crap. There’s a lot of moderators out there moderating by hand and using bots to run some of the bigger subreddits, much like IRC. Without those bots having access to the APIs, that job gets harder and it’s less likely to be done well. Personally I think Steve Huffman is the fall guy here and this is coming from the money people who have zero interest in where Reddit is beyond 6 months after the IPO. Reddit also has a history putting people in place to make controversial decisions only to fire them months later as appeasement to their community. Ellen Pao was the most recent example.
  - x86x87 3y ago
    Lol. What IPO? Do you think anyone is buying reddit stock after this clusterfuck?
    - davewritescode 3y ago
      I'm not saying it's a good idea to IPO but if Reddit shows a 25% increase in ad impressions and minimal loss of users this might end up being better. Personally, if I were in charge with Reddit I'd go for an approach that required 3rd party clients to show ads that come back from Reddit's APIs and allow users to opt-out of adds for a small monthly fee directly from the user or even from the app developers who choose to incorporate it into their fee structure. Apps who don't comply get banned. The approach Reddit is going for is stupid and is burning goodwill earned over more than a decade.
  - bredren 3y ago
    I also think the CEO is a scapegoat. I’d argue that Huffman showed more courage than Elon did, though. That said, Huffman’s handling of this was bumbling at best. It demonstrated a failure to understand his own users or the culture of the site. For that alone, he should go. But there are plenty of other reasons company leadership has failed its community, particularly it’s unpaid workers moderating content.

bhaak 3y ago

It doesn't make sense to go all-in all at once. You need to have leverage afterwards as well. Also you have to think about the media coverage. This way you have two times the possible media coverage instead of just once and then everybody forgets about it.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

The endgame should simply be: 1. Reddit management gets their head out of their asses and negotiates a better change to API fees and structure. Throughout this whole ordeal everyone else (Apollo dev, mods, etc.) has made extremely reasonable points, but Reddit management seems to be gaslighting and arguing in bad faith at every turn. 2. If management doesn't change, Reddit should die. Why should all these mods donate huge amounts of time to a platform that disrespects them at every turn?

x86x87 3y ago
Ideally yes, but the opposite is going to happen. They're gonna push their heads so far their asses they're gonna hit the stomach. CEO and everyone that though this is the way to monetize need to go.
breadsniffer01 3y ago
Mods get free API usage. It’s only for 3rd party apps. It seems the Apollo dev has been throwing around some misinformation.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  > It seems the Apollo dev has been throwing around some misinformation. Please point out, specifically, where he has done this. Otherwise, STFU. To be clear, it's not like I've been following every one of his posts, so it's quite possible he said things that aren't accurate. So far, though, I've seen nothing but vague accusations against Christian, and when he did call bullshit and brought the receipts to back it up, u/spez said he was "leaking a private call". Queen please, he libeled Christian and then when Christian brought evidence to prove him wrong he complained!! What an asshat.
  - CamelCaseName 3y ago
    1. He said he spends $166 / 50 million Imgur API requests. He must have a sweetheart deal because I see the prices at $3,333 / 50 million API requests (and if you go above that, it gets crazy expensive FAST) 2. Moderator actions are exempt from the API charges... But I think this decision was made after things had blown up.

dharmab 3y ago

Reddit has taken over "abandoned" subreddits in the past and replaced the moderation teams. By making this temporary, the moderators of topic-based subreddits can continue to organize their communities, including organized migration to new places like Discord.

x86x87 3y ago
Subs are not some abstract things where you just slap a new mod on and it's all fine. You may be abke to do this in extreme cases but there is no way this works for thousands of subs
- MostlyStable 3y ago
  Yeah, I do honestly think that that would be the only way this works. If the majority of mods were just like "yup, we'll shut it down and leave", forcing reddit to replace _large_ swaths of moderation, things could get ugly for them. As it is, as far as I have seen, very few subs are committing to being permanently closed, and Reddit will only boot mods from a _very_ small number of subs over a 2 day closure, so they don't have to find much replacement talent. Right now, admins will probably replace a few dozens of mods, and then the rest of the site will be back in 2 days, and nothing will change.
  - chx 3y ago
    That number is growing by the hour and we shall see what happens on the 14th. There's not much stopping the participating subs from continuing indefinitely. If it's not declared as infinite, it's even harder to justify replacing them. For example, /r/askhistorians is going private for 48h and reopens readonly indefinitely after. /r/pathofexile as far as I understand won't be going private but goes readonly once again indefinitely. etc
    - unclekev 3y ago
      > /r/askhistorians is going private for 48h and reopens readonly indefinitely after. /r/pathofexile as far as I understand won't be going private but goes readonly once again indefinitely. Wow, that'll really show them who's boss! /s

none_to_remain 3y ago

Eventually people would just start replacement subreddits and the powermods would be left with jack shit