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I was one of the last few to go through conscription and service in Germany before it was a abolished I hope it does come back. (including of course the alterna

I was one of the last few to go through conscription and service in Germany before it was a abolished I hope it does come back. (including of course the alternative civil service) For one it instills in young people a sense of duty and direction and also simply physical fitness which many struggle with these days, in Germany an important aspect was always to have civilian supervision in the military ('citizen in uniform') not a sort of separated, private army. A lot of people in the army I talked to have noted that nowadays a lot of people who sign up are just people with limited job prospects. An army of the unemployed is ethically awful. National service should not be pushed on people who do it desperate for a paycheck. Everyone in the country benefits from its defense, so nobody should be able to skip out. I admire the culture of say Israel, Finland, Norway or Switzerland, small countries where this has always been on the mind of people.

exabrial 3y ago
I thought your comment was insightful and didn’t deserve a down vote.
griffinkelly 3y ago
I think the biggest benefit of more people serving is that the general public realizes that war is a terrible thing and should be done as a last resort. I think it also gives a better understanding of the ways governments use power projection and it's an unnecessary evil, particularly becoming relevant again with Russia. As we see fewer and fewer people serving I believe many of our political leaders will become less empathetic to that understanding. As a reservist in the US, in the many conversations I've had with fellow tech coworkers, there's usually a general lack of knowledge and understanding on the military as few have any direct relatives in the armed services. As a side note in terms of fitness, in the US, the number eligible people is rather low due to the number of constrains the US military places on fitness, weight, tattoos, mental health etc. The number of people that could actually fight it everyone were called up that's within the age bracket is somewhere in the teens in terms of percentage. Unsure where that stands in Europe, but it would be a large roadbump if the draft were to be reimplemented.
LoLFactor 3y ago
Everyone's experience is valid, I guess, but way to lose the thread within 2 sentences. You start by saying how COMPULSORY military service would help and end by saying that a military comprised of people who are there because they have no other choice is not ideal. You really don't see the disconnect? Your solution to having less people there with no other choice is by giving EVERYBODY no other choice? Way to solve a problem. Also, how gracious of you to solve other people's problems. "Youths are having trouble with fitness. Compulsory military service would help them". Cool story. People are too fat? Let them be. Who are you to start solving other people's problems against their will? Did the youths ask for your help? You might think you're being helpful, but what you're ACTUALLY saying is "Yeah, if all you young people would be more fit, it would help ME out in case of a conflict." Mighty altruistic. Thanks for the tip.
- Barrin92 3y ago
  > Did the youths ask for your help? They do, desperately so. There is a reason we have an entire internet economy of influencers and hucksters targeting in particular disoriented young men. They're pretty much begging for someone to provide meaning, discipline, comradery the kind of which traditionally you experience in for example military service and instead we leave them to Andrew Tate. We have huge issues with young people delaying adulthood, not having structure, feeling useless and so on. Demanding someone serve their country is to take them seriously, give them responsibility and to provide them with a good reason to cultivate character.
fweimer 3y ago
Currently, 14% of pupils (of any gender) in Germany are not eligible for military service because they are not citizens. Conscription (which was never formally abolished) does not extend to females. Based on what others have told me about their basic training, it used to teach a view of masculinity that bordered on the reactionary even back then, and would be unacceptable to broader society today. (I don't know much about replacement service, mine was an underpaid office job.) Therefore, I think we'd need changes that make conscription unrecognizable before we can say that it somehow promotes societal cohesion and inclusiveness. Regarding self-selection and career prospects: We went to a military fair on a school trip in the 90s. There was an enlistment pitch, too, and even then (conscription had not yet been paused), they seemed to target those who didn't know what they wanted to do with their lives. (Everyone in my class was technically headed for tertiary education eligibility, so unemployment was a far-away concern.)

exabrial 3y ago

I thought your comment was insightful and didn’t deserve a down vote.

griffinkelly 3y ago

I think the biggest benefit of more people serving is that the general public realizes that war is a terrible thing and should be done as a last resort. I think it also gives a better understanding of the ways governments use power projection and it's an unnecessary evil, particularly becoming relevant again with Russia. As we see fewer and fewer people serving I believe many of our political leaders will become less empathetic to that understanding. As a reservist in the US, in the many conversations I've had with fellow tech coworkers, there's usually a general lack of knowledge and understanding on the military as few have any direct relatives in the armed services. As a side note in terms of fitness, in the US, the number eligible people is rather low due to the number of constrains the US military places on fitness, weight, tattoos, mental health etc. The number of people that could actually fight it everyone were called up that's within the age bracket is somewhere in the teens in terms of percentage. Unsure where that stands in Europe, but it would be a large roadbump if the draft were to be reimplemented.

LoLFactor 3y ago

Everyone's experience is valid, I guess, but way to lose the thread within 2 sentences. You start by saying how COMPULSORY military service would help and end by saying that a military comprised of people who are there because they have no other choice is not ideal. You really don't see the disconnect? Your solution to having less people there with no other choice is by giving EVERYBODY no other choice? Way to solve a problem. Also, how gracious of you to solve other people's problems. "Youths are having trouble with fitness. Compulsory military service would help them". Cool story. People are too fat? Let them be. Who are you to start solving other people's problems against their will? Did the youths ask for your help? You might think you're being helpful, but what you're ACTUALLY saying is "Yeah, if all you young people would be more fit, it would help ME out in case of a conflict." Mighty altruistic. Thanks for the tip.

Barrin92 3y ago
> Did the youths ask for your help? They do, desperately so. There is a reason we have an entire internet economy of influencers and hucksters targeting in particular disoriented young men. They're pretty much begging for someone to provide meaning, discipline, comradery the kind of which traditionally you experience in for example military service and instead we leave them to Andrew Tate. We have huge issues with young people delaying adulthood, not having structure, feeling useless and so on. Demanding someone serve their country is to take them seriously, give them responsibility and to provide them with a good reason to cultivate character.

fweimer 3y ago

Currently, 14% of pupils (of any gender) in Germany are not eligible for military service because they are not citizens. Conscription (which was never formally abolished) does not extend to females. Based on what others have told me about their basic training, it used to teach a view of masculinity that bordered on the reactionary even back then, and would be unacceptable to broader society today. (I don't know much about replacement service, mine was an underpaid office job.) Therefore, I think we'd need changes that make conscription unrecognizable before we can say that it somehow promotes societal cohesion and inclusiveness. Regarding self-selection and career prospects: We went to a military fair on a school trip in the 90s. There was an enlistment pitch, too, and even then (conscription had not yet been paused), they seemed to target those who didn't know what they wanted to do with their lives. (Everyone in my class was technically headed for tertiary education eligibility, so unemployment was a far-away concern.)