4 ms·

I've done both and I can assure you that management is not less work. In fact, you are more likely to work longer hours, and attend meetings at stupid times be

I've done both and I can assure you that management is not less work. In fact, you are more likely to work longer hours, and attend meetings at stupid times because that's the only slot you can get the more senior managers to meet at. However, you sound disillusioned with your work, and maybe you do need to transition into something else. A new challenge can revitalise you, and it doesn't have to be forever. I've met plenty of engineers who seem to believe that everyone else's non technical role is easy. Keep an open mind, and don't approach new opportunities with a negative attitude, or you will probably remain discontented.

5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
> I've met plenty of engineers who seem to believe that everyone else's non technical role is easy. Not easy. But it's the difference between being the one who is approving and the one who is doing the work. The one who has some autonomy and the one who doesn't. The one who is valued and the one who isn't. Having to attend OOH meeting is less stress for me, then having to build something OOH and make it work. One requires communication, politics, the other one actual tangible deliverables. > you sound disillusioned with your work yes, you're right.
- MattPalmer1086 3y ago
  Many years ago I did some great courses on team building and management. Also some negotiation skills and assertiveness training. They were really useful to me. Maybe that is something which might help you move into a role with more autonomy.
  - 5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
    thanks, i will look into it
    - photonbeam 3y ago
      Being glue, like building internal tools and processes, often has a lot of autonomy compared to working on a product
tkiolp4 3y ago
> I've met plenty of engineers who seem to believe that everyone else's non technical role is easy. In my experience it’s like that (I’m talking about engineers vs eng. managers). Another significant difference is the amount of work, I believe: as an engineer I work 4h/day but those 4h are “hard” hours (fully focused) and my brain ends up a bit exhausted after. But that’s all I do in the day for work. On the other hand, eng. managers do more lightweight work, but work longer hours. I have to say that in my experience, what my eng. managers were doing all day was: 1:1s, meetings with other managers to decide how to shift around people, interviews, being present at some sprint plannings without saying much, being present at some daily meetings without saying much.
- Aeolun 3y ago
  People always say that managers work more hours, but I feel like it’d be quite possible to do the job in the time I spend doing my work now. We don’t think it’s normal if programmers work extra hours to get their work done. Why should we for managers?
  - MattPalmer1086 3y ago
    Quite right! In my experience, it is a combination of people who are ambitious to climb the hierarchy, the difficulty of scheduling meetings when people are actually available, and just quite a lot of fire fighting, where urgent issues have to be resolved quickly. Obviously, it depends on the organisation you work at.
  - tkiolp4 3y ago
    I think the problem is that eng. managers have not much control regarding how many meetings they have (and at what time they are scheduled). Being meetings the big chunk if their day to day work, that restricts the amount of freedom eng. managers usually have. For engineers it’s different: we have complete control regarding when to work, and we don’t have as many meetings as eng. managers have. So there’s more freedom in my opinion. I think it’s not very realistic for a manager to say: I’ll work extra today so tomorrow I’ll work only 1h (because you probably have meetings to attend that you cannot postpone). As engineer, I work whenever I want and rest whenever I need it (as long as I meet deadlines and the like)
moffkalast 3y ago
> In fact, you are more likely to work longer hours, and attend meetings at stupid times because that's the only slot you can get the more senior managers to meet at. Unless you work with someone internationally and the only time both teams are awake is at ungodly hours for both, so you never get any meetings at normal times.
- MattPalmer1086 3y ago
  Yep, like my current place split between US and UK. US people have to get up early and we end up working late.

5350-uiop-1130 3y ago

> I've met plenty of engineers who seem to believe that everyone else's non technical role is easy. Not easy. But it's the difference between being the one who is approving and the one who is doing the work. The one who has some autonomy and the one who doesn't. The one who is valued and the one who isn't. Having to attend OOH meeting is less stress for me, then having to build something OOH and make it work. One requires communication, politics, the other one actual tangible deliverables. > you sound disillusioned with your work yes, you're right.

MattPalmer1086 3y ago
Many years ago I did some great courses on team building and management. Also some negotiation skills and assertiveness training. They were really useful to me. Maybe that is something which might help you move into a role with more autonomy.
- 5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
  thanks, i will look into it
  - photonbeam 3y ago
    Being glue, like building internal tools and processes, often has a lot of autonomy compared to working on a product

tkiolp4 3y ago

> I've met plenty of engineers who seem to believe that everyone else's non technical role is easy. In my experience it’s like that (I’m talking about engineers vs eng. managers). Another significant difference is the amount of work, I believe: as an engineer I work 4h/day but those 4h are “hard” hours (fully focused) and my brain ends up a bit exhausted after. But that’s all I do in the day for work. On the other hand, eng. managers do more lightweight work, but work longer hours. I have to say that in my experience, what my eng. managers were doing all day was: 1:1s, meetings with other managers to decide how to shift around people, interviews, being present at some sprint plannings without saying much, being present at some daily meetings without saying much.

Aeolun 3y ago
People always say that managers work more hours, but I feel like it’d be quite possible to do the job in the time I spend doing my work now. We don’t think it’s normal if programmers work extra hours to get their work done. Why should we for managers?
- MattPalmer1086 3y ago
  Quite right! In my experience, it is a combination of people who are ambitious to climb the hierarchy, the difficulty of scheduling meetings when people are actually available, and just quite a lot of fire fighting, where urgent issues have to be resolved quickly. Obviously, it depends on the organisation you work at.
- tkiolp4 3y ago
  I think the problem is that eng. managers have not much control regarding how many meetings they have (and at what time they are scheduled). Being meetings the big chunk if their day to day work, that restricts the amount of freedom eng. managers usually have. For engineers it’s different: we have complete control regarding when to work, and we don’t have as many meetings as eng. managers have. So there’s more freedom in my opinion. I think it’s not very realistic for a manager to say: I’ll work extra today so tomorrow I’ll work only 1h (because you probably have meetings to attend that you cannot postpone). As engineer, I work whenever I want and rest whenever I need it (as long as I meet deadlines and the like)

moffkalast 3y ago

> In fact, you are more likely to work longer hours, and attend meetings at stupid times because that's the only slot you can get the more senior managers to meet at. Unless you work with someone internationally and the only time both teams are awake is at ungodly hours for both, so you never get any meetings at normal times.

MattPalmer1086 3y ago
Yep, like my current place split between US and UK. US people have to get up early and we end up working late.