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Interested in moving from Engineer to Manager because I hope to do less work. Happy to do a few meetings, send a few emails, rather than actually having to buil

Interested in moving from Engineer to Manager because I hope to do less work. Happy to do a few meetings, send a few emails, rather than actually having to build stuff that i don't care about. It's even better if as you say the success is determined by the team, because then also the failure can be pushed on the team. Edit: FWIW not that I want to be a bad manager. The environment is what shapes your incentives and behaviours.

kubb 3y ago
Same here, I just need to work on my sophistry skills, and learn to make loyal friends in the right places.
roenxi 3y ago
Success and failure are determined by the team. You as a manager would be responsible for the outcome. The thing being managed is the performance of the team. Bad performance == Bad management.
sideway 3y ago
That's an extremely myopic and immature view of what management is. You have probably only worked with incompetent managers and your experiences reduce a role that can be both stressful and complex to nothingness.
- unicornmama 3y ago
  Ironically, competent managers also make it look easy. Because they must understand that their mood, behavior and what they say can really impact the morale of their reports and their relationships in the organization, many display a calm and professional demeanor. To the untrained, this outward apperance obscures the fact that they work very hard to position their team for success; and navigate, mitigate or repel shitstorms.
- ralphstodomingo 3y ago
  Exactly, what merit is there to putting a manager that pushes failure onto the team? Might as well have the team itself report to senior management if one is too eager to get out of the way.
MattPalmer1086 3y ago
I've done both and I can assure you that management is not less work. In fact, you are more likely to work longer hours, and attend meetings at stupid times because that's the only slot you can get the more senior managers to meet at. However, you sound disillusioned with your work, and maybe you do need to transition into something else. A new challenge can revitalise you, and it doesn't have to be forever. I've met plenty of engineers who seem to believe that everyone else's non technical role is easy. Keep an open mind, and don't approach new opportunities with a negative attitude, or you will probably remain discontented.
- 5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
  > I've met plenty of engineers who seem to believe that everyone else's non technical role is easy. Not easy. But it's the difference between being the one who is approving and the one who is doing the work. The one who has some autonomy and the one who doesn't. The one who is valued and the one who isn't. Having to attend OOH meeting is less stress for me, then having to build something OOH and make it work. One requires communication, politics, the other one actual tangible deliverables. > you sound disillusioned with your work yes, you're right.
  - MattPalmer1086 3y ago
    Many years ago I did some great courses on team building and management. Also some negotiation skills and assertiveness training. They were really useful to me. Maybe that is something which might help you move into a role with more autonomy.
    - 5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
      thanks, i will look into it
      - photonbeam 3y ago
        Being glue, like building internal tools and processes, often has a lot of autonomy compared to working on a product
sokoloff 3y ago
That’s what’s difficult about leadership: success and observable, effusive credit flows down the org chart through the manager to the team. Failure is intercepted and sticks more with the leader. Neither is 100%, but if you try to push failure 100% onto the team, you’re going to have a really bad time personally and be rightly reviled as a weak leader by your team, your peers, and your senior leaders.
- 5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
  > effusive credit flows down the org chart through the manager to the team not in my experience tbh. i worked 16 years as an Engineer across 6 orgs including Fang. What I saw is that the closer you are to management the more valued and rewarded you are. Simply because you are doing the management's dirty work (your influence is direct) and you have more insight into finances, so it's more difficult for them to underpay you. Credit very rarely flows down and when it does, in very generalistic way "thanks to X and Y and also the team for their efforts".
tkiolp4 3y ago
In my experience engineers have more “free time” than eng. managers. As a senior engineer I have not many meetings per week, and the tasks I need to accomplish I can arrange time for them the best way that fits me. So, on Monday I could work fully focused, let’s say, 4h, and call it a day. On Tuesday spend 2h in meetings and another 2h to do PR reviewing… I have almost absolute control over my day, and that feeling is great. On the other hand, even though eng. managers mostly do meetings, their calendars are usually packed with them. Even worse, they may have one meeting at 8am, another at 12, and another at 4pm… that kills your day completely since you have to stay available during the whole day. Definitely something I would hate.
- taneq 3y ago
  Meetings filled with endless bike shedding about trivialities, bickering about specs, push and shove over changes in scope and delivery dates… and then every waking moment outside of those meetings, you’re either following up the above from previous meetings or scheduling new ones. Not a fun time.
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  The flip side is if it’s “crunch time” it’s not the manager that needs to work 12 hours or weekends to get something shipped.
  - AQuantized 3y ago
    That should never happen at any 'good' company imo, and I haven't personally experienced it.
    - lanstin 3y ago
      If it is a project I strongly believe in and mostly said we should do, and it is more fun than frustrating, I will get into big focus and work or think about it continually until it is finished, then I slump and relax for a while, going around and bragging to my friends and writing docs and maybe tech talks. But if it a project without intrinsic motivation or large and clearly present business value (like fixing an incident or saving a $10M client contract but not some hopeful!thing that might pay off in two years), then I keep my weekends to maintain myself as a human being (which ironically also happens to benefit the company on that two year time scale).
moffkalast 3y ago
In a similar boat and have tried this recently, but I can't say it worked. The only real solution seems to be to go elsewhere. There is something supremely disgusting in being forced to work on projects ("hey client X needs this Y thing done asap") that you don't care about, know they have a close to zero chance of working to an acceptable degree and also know you'll be blamed for their failure. Over and over and over.
djohnston 3y ago
I transitioned to EM and I assure you it’s a lot more work. If you don’t want to fight with your company’s trash IDE, then maybe. But if you think you’ll have less on your plate as an EM then either 1. You’re wrong and you’ll find yourself working more 2. You’re right and you are screwing over your team.
stcroixx 3y ago
Not how it works. You now are responsible for making other people complete work you don’t care about. If they fail, you also fail. Way more risk, way less control over the outcome. Plus your tech skills atrophy the whole time, making you less valuable outside your org leading to a kind of employer lock in.
taway1874 3y ago
Ha! Love the honesty. You must have some very good managers who make their work seem effortless. Perhaps get them to be a mentor when you make the shift so when reality strikes you won't have to deal with it by yourself.

kubb 3y ago

Same here, I just need to work on my sophistry skills, and learn to make loyal friends in the right places.

roenxi 3y ago

Success and failure are determined by the team. You as a manager would be responsible for the outcome. The thing being managed is the performance of the team. Bad performance == Bad management.

sideway 3y ago

That's an extremely myopic and immature view of what management is. You have probably only worked with incompetent managers and your experiences reduce a role that can be both stressful and complex to nothingness.

unicornmama 3y ago
Ironically, competent managers also make it look easy. Because they must understand that their mood, behavior and what they say can really impact the morale of their reports and their relationships in the organization, many display a calm and professional demeanor. To the untrained, this outward apperance obscures the fact that they work very hard to position their team for success; and navigate, mitigate or repel shitstorms.
ralphstodomingo 3y ago
Exactly, what merit is there to putting a manager that pushes failure onto the team? Might as well have the team itself report to senior management if one is too eager to get out of the way.

MattPalmer1086 3y ago

I've done both and I can assure you that management is not less work. In fact, you are more likely to work longer hours, and attend meetings at stupid times because that's the only slot you can get the more senior managers to meet at. However, you sound disillusioned with your work, and maybe you do need to transition into something else. A new challenge can revitalise you, and it doesn't have to be forever. I've met plenty of engineers who seem to believe that everyone else's non technical role is easy. Keep an open mind, and don't approach new opportunities with a negative attitude, or you will probably remain discontented.

5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
> I've met plenty of engineers who seem to believe that everyone else's non technical role is easy. Not easy. But it's the difference between being the one who is approving and the one who is doing the work. The one who has some autonomy and the one who doesn't. The one who is valued and the one who isn't. Having to attend OOH meeting is less stress for me, then having to build something OOH and make it work. One requires communication, politics, the other one actual tangible deliverables. > you sound disillusioned with your work yes, you're right.
- MattPalmer1086 3y ago
  Many years ago I did some great courses on team building and management. Also some negotiation skills and assertiveness training. They were really useful to me. Maybe that is something which might help you move into a role with more autonomy.
  - 5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
    thanks, i will look into it
    - photonbeam 3y ago
      Being glue, like building internal tools and processes, often has a lot of autonomy compared to working on a product

sokoloff 3y ago

That’s what’s difficult about leadership: success and observable, effusive credit flows down the org chart through the manager to the team. Failure is intercepted and sticks more with the leader. Neither is 100%, but if you try to push failure 100% onto the team, you’re going to have a really bad time personally and be rightly reviled as a weak leader by your team, your peers, and your senior leaders.

5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
> effusive credit flows down the org chart through the manager to the team not in my experience tbh. i worked 16 years as an Engineer across 6 orgs including Fang. What I saw is that the closer you are to management the more valued and rewarded you are. Simply because you are doing the management's dirty work (your influence is direct) and you have more insight into finances, so it's more difficult for them to underpay you. Credit very rarely flows down and when it does, in very generalistic way "thanks to X and Y and also the team for their efforts".

tkiolp4 3y ago

In my experience engineers have more “free time” than eng. managers. As a senior engineer I have not many meetings per week, and the tasks I need to accomplish I can arrange time for them the best way that fits me. So, on Monday I could work fully focused, let’s say, 4h, and call it a day. On Tuesday spend 2h in meetings and another 2h to do PR reviewing… I have almost absolute control over my day, and that feeling is great. On the other hand, even though eng. managers mostly do meetings, their calendars are usually packed with them. Even worse, they may have one meeting at 8am, another at 12, and another at 4pm… that kills your day completely since you have to stay available during the whole day. Definitely something I would hate.

taneq 3y ago
Meetings filled with endless bike shedding about trivialities, bickering about specs, push and shove over changes in scope and delivery dates… and then every waking moment outside of those meetings, you’re either following up the above from previous meetings or scheduling new ones. Not a fun time.
zeroonetwothree 3y ago
The flip side is if it’s “crunch time” it’s not the manager that needs to work 12 hours or weekends to get something shipped.
- AQuantized 3y ago
  That should never happen at any 'good' company imo, and I haven't personally experienced it.
  - lanstin 3y ago
    If it is a project I strongly believe in and mostly said we should do, and it is more fun than frustrating, I will get into big focus and work or think about it continually until it is finished, then I slump and relax for a while, going around and bragging to my friends and writing docs and maybe tech talks. But if it a project without intrinsic motivation or large and clearly present business value (like fixing an incident or saving a $10M client contract but not some hopeful!thing that might pay off in two years), then I keep my weekends to maintain myself as a human being (which ironically also happens to benefit the company on that two year time scale).

moffkalast 3y ago

In a similar boat and have tried this recently, but I can't say it worked. The only real solution seems to be to go elsewhere. There is something supremely disgusting in being forced to work on projects ("hey client X needs this Y thing done asap") that you don't care about, know they have a close to zero chance of working to an acceptable degree and also know you'll be blamed for their failure. Over and over and over.

djohnston 3y ago

I transitioned to EM and I assure you it’s a lot more work. If you don’t want to fight with your company’s trash IDE, then maybe. But if you think you’ll have less on your plate as an EM then either 1. You’re wrong and you’ll find yourself working more 2. You’re right and you are screwing over your team.

stcroixx 3y ago

Not how it works. You now are responsible for making other people complete work you don’t care about. If they fail, you also fail. Way more risk, way less control over the outcome. Plus your tech skills atrophy the whole time, making you less valuable outside your org leading to a kind of employer lock in.

taway1874 3y ago

Ha! Love the honesty. You must have some very good managers who make their work seem effortless. Perhaps get them to be a mentor when you make the shift so when reality strikes you won't have to deal with it by yourself.