20 ms·
VP of Bitwarden fired for using ‘Assigned By God’ as pronoun sues employer
- version_five 3y agoThis has nothing to do with accommodation or tolerance and everything to do with the power it gives people over others. I don't know why people go along with this nonsense. It's way worse than any mainstream religion at this point.
- jackmott 3y ago[dead]
- jleyank 3y agoBeing an ass, or ramming their religion down peoples faces tends to annoy people. He could have been secure in his beliefs, chosen he/him or whatever pronouns were appropriate and moved on. Most places in North America, I thought, was at will employment.
- david38 3y agoYes, I agree. Ramming idiology down someone’s throat in an environment whose purpose is to make $$ is uncalled for. So why did Bitwarden do it? They could have made it entirely optional.
- adhesive_wombat 3y agoI thought he had put it as a joke ("Assigned by God said that Assigned by God's tickets need to be triaged before Assigned by God's holiday") and firing him was a huge overreaction, but did not at first consider that someone might be so entirely serious about that. Though still sounds weird to me, both that you'd fire someone for just that (or maybe there's more going on) or that if you knew you could be fired for just that, that you'd do it anyway.
- bsaul 3y ago"ramming your religion down people's face" is what a LOT of religion are doing. Take for example hidjab (muslim scarf). We even have a law at some point in france to prevent religion from intruding special places like school, but i was under the impression that was considered discriminatory in the US..
- jleyank 3y agoI suspect misogyny underlays much of the “ohh, teacher in hidjab” bs.
- friend_and_foe 3y agoYeah, being required to cover your hair because you're a woman is very misogynistic.
- cholantesh 3y ago>prevent religion from intruding special places like school With a rather conspicuous exemption for crosses.
- bsaul 3y agothere are no cross in public schools, only private catholic ones.
- jleyank 3y agoNot sure about Quebec, but there are public Catholic schools in Ontario. Bothers the crap out of me...
- bsaul 3y agoi don't know about quebec either, I was actually only speaking about france. I have the feeling france really has something unique with its relationship to religion ( and multi-culturalism in general) that could really benefit a lot of modern western societies. Unfortunately for now the influence goes the other way, we're the ones being influenced by the craziness happening in the US..
- Supermancho 3y ago> He could have been secure in his beliefs, This is perfectly in line with many people's belief. Pronoun selection is intended to be arbitrary to serve your own identity...except when someone objects to a specific selection. The Jedi religion evolution in Australia, at least gave a line (that Jedis were able to cross) for what constitutes a religion. I have little faith that a more comprehensive ruleset for pronouns will come out of California.
- balls187 3y agoSo it’s between ramming preferred pronouns down someones throat vs ramming religion down someones throat. What’s the difference?
- EA-3167 3y agoIt's an interesting question, but as far as I understand it no one is ramming pronouns down anyone's throats? You don't even need to use them if you don't want to, just refer to people by name. Plus realistically no one is going to make you use any given pronoun, there's no council of pronouns. By contrast forcing religion on people has a long history of real harm, it isn't just a social nicety. The worst that comes out of "pronoun policing" is arguably just rudeness, the worst that comes out of forcing religion is a known quantity, and it's as bad as it gets.
- mixmastamyk 3y agoArticle states it happened to its subject?
- balls187 3y agoI only did a cursory read, but Chard (the former VP) listed “Assigned by God” as his personal pronoun, and (over simplified) that lead to his termination. I understand that Christianity has gone out of favor in the workplace, but it’ss odd that corporate policies for inclusion seem to still alienate Christian beliefs (I say that as a Heathen). Like having preferred pronouns in your email signature is valid, but listing you walk in the light of Christ would not fly.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jleyank 3y agoIs it so hard to segregate personal and work activities? Do the personal stuff, hobbies, religions, ... on your own time in your own place with your own group. When in the work environment, do work things and play well with others who probably aren't the people you'd prefer to be with. If their behaviour is that uncomfortable to you, you'll move on. Similarly, if your behaviour is that uncomfortable to them, you'll move on.
- friend_and_foe 3y agoWhich pronouns are allowed and which aren't? I forgot. This shit isn't freedom, its requirement to demonstrate loyalty to ideology. This person used the prescribed methods to demonstrate loyalty to a different ideology, and the cult came after them. That is all that happened here.
- sacnoradhq 3y agoRewind to 1999 or 1976. There was always workplace-appropriate communication, say the title on a corporate business card. Using that as a medium to advance personal views was and is inappropriate.
- AdrianB1 3y agoUsing pronouns on business cards in 1999 or 1976 was also inappropriate. If you did that in 1976, people would consider you are a lunatic, according to my parents that did have business cards at that time.
- UtopiaPunk 3y agoInstead we used Mr, Ms, Mrs. I don't know why listing one's preferred pronouns are somehow worse
- friend_and_foe 3y agoYup, and if someone tried to leverage corporate communication to force their coworkers to appease their ideology that would have been a pretty big deal.
- kgwxd 3y agoAllowed: "The part of speech that substitutes for nouns or noun phrases and designates persons or things asked for, previously specified, or understood from the context." Not allowed: Everything else. It's how words work.
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
- adhesive_wombat 3y agoI love that someone in this article about pronouns is using the wrong proper noun: presumably it's Chad or Chard (like the leafy vegetables?), but not both
- VincentEvans 3y ago[flagged]
- adhesive_wombat 3y agoSssh, lettuce believe in the alternative!
- magicfractal 3y agoHe was free to chose his own pronouns and keep his gender ideology to himself. The company is also free to chose the policy that maximizes the well-being of most employees. Instead, he decided to engage in proselytizing at work, well deserved imo.
- version_five 3y agoThat's not how I read it. He was "pressured" or forced depending on how you interpret the article to play that game and couldn't leave it blank. So he lashed out a bit when provoked. At least he took a stand and didn't just capitulate and play that stupid game. I wouldn't say I agree with putting something inflammatory, but it's way more respectable that just letting something absurd get forced on you. I would have just quit. (Same as I would quit if I was asked to affirm I believed in the principles of any religion, as sometimes comes up).
- locopati 3y agoSomething absurd like asking someone how they want to be referred to in the third person?
- version_five 3y agoIf someone feels that's a critical piece of information to share, nothing is stopping them. My understanding is that he was being coerced into doing that himself when it wasn't relevant to him, and in fact he found it offensive to be aksed. So yes it's absurd. (I'm not sure I should have replied, I consider the whole issue too stupid to spend time on other than to say "piss off, adults are talking", but anyway)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- iLoveOncall 3y ago> If someone feels that's a critical piece of information to share, nothing is stopping them. My understanding is that Assigned by God was being coerced into doing that Assigned by Godself when it wasn't relevant to Assigned by God, and in fact Assigned by God found it offensive to be aksed. So yes it's absurd. FTFY.
- George83728 3y ago> The lawsuit further mentions that two employees in Bitwarden’s human resources department complained of feeling harassed by Scharf’s religious statements. I am an atheist but my best friend from college is a devout catholic and he tells me similar things about having to keep his religion under wraps at work because he'll get coworkers going on a vendetta against him otherwise. I believe him. Others have confided all manner of discriminatory and hateful remarks aimed at the religious to me, knowing that I am an atheist and therefore believing that I sympathize with their anti-theist bigotry (I do not; being an atheist is not synonymous with being an anti-theist.) This industry has a real problem with tolerance. It's all sunshine and roses if you fit the mold, but if you dare to be a little different all the knives come out.
- version_five 3y agoIt's less about fitting the mold than letting hyperpartisans walk all over you with their ideology. I think it's particularly bad in tech because lots of people want to keep their head down and not bother with politics so they just go with the flow, and next thing you know we've got nonsense like this where religious nuts are firing people because they don't conform. Try this on a construction site and see what happens.
- AdrianB1 3y agoNo, there is no problem with tolerance. I grew up in 2 cultures with 3 different religions and I am extremely supportive with people having whatever religion they want, but not tolerant at all with either them trying to convert me or trying to assert something just because one of their books said so. If you have a discussion and the only argument they have is "it is written in <insert religious book here>, so this is the way" then dismissing their argument is not intolerance to their religion, but to their lack of rational thinking. Religions are not collections of scientific facts to be used as arguments.
- George83728 3y agoMy friend doesn't proselytize. He knew I was an atheist the first day we met and not once has he ever proselytized to me. He conceals the very fact that he is a catholic at work because he has reason to believe (well founded reason, I think) that he would face discrimination should that simple fact become known around his office.
- droptablemain 3y agoPronouns are generally used to refer to someone in the third-person. Most of the time they are used when referring to a person not present in the conversation. Why should I be dictated or forcefully compelled to refer to a person by a pronoun that does not match my interpretation of them? And how far does this go? We've already seen the emergence of neo-pronouns, i.e. frog-self, bunny-self, kitten-self, etc. The cultural shift in the past 10 years gives credence to previously dismissed slippery slope arguments. And lastly, why is the neoliberal and corporate world supporting this so fervently?
- version_five 3y ago> And lastly, why is the neoliberal and corporate world supporting this so fervently? Because of the insane amount of power this behavior confers. In this story it escalated into a VP getting fired. It's a given that if there's that kind of power to be had, it's going to be pursued.
- r00fus 3y agoDisagree completely. It’s pridewashing - hey ignore our bad corporate behavior or poor product strategy - we support LGBTQ! It’s the same schtick they use when greenwashing.
- Nextgrid 3y agoFiring the VP for such a transgression is a good way to virtue-signal about how much they "support LGBTQ", so I'm not sure how much this actually disagrees with the parent?
- r00fus 3y agoFiring the VP isn't the goal, in fact it's detrimental to it. The goal is to make others think that the company is doing "good" by its employees and society, so we ignore the company's mis-steps.
- Incipient 3y ago
- bzax 3y ago> Additionally, Scharf received a reprimand for not using preferred pronouns in notes related to an interview he conducted with a job applicant whose preferred pronouns did not align with their biological gender. Scharf argued in the lawsuit that he refrained from using any pronouns during the interview and only used the applicant’s biological pronouns in internal notes. It is so easy to just always write "the candidate" in your interview notes, and never need to write any third person pronouns. Certainly he was making a stand, rather than just non-confrontationally abiding by his beliefs. Obviously one wouldn't use any gendered pronouns in the interview since we only have "you" in English - though I imagine "refrained from using any pronouns" is a misreporting.
- iLoveOncall 3y agoHave you ever taken notes during an interview? If I wrote "the candidate" every time, I would just lose track of what the candidate is saying. On top of that, I don't know how it works at Bitwarden, but interview notes are only supposed to be used by you to later synthesize, so it shouldn't matter if you write "the candidate", "the dude", or whatever else is the most efficient when taking notes. Lastly, it wouldn't even come to my mind to ask a candidate's pronouns in an interview, so it's already unreasonable expectations for me to even know them.
- bzax 3y agoHave you ever shared interview notes with anyone? I type mine up... and 'TC' is just as useful in my shorthand as he/she would be. I agree with you that if these were his personal notes from which he then composed his evaluation of the candidate it wouldn't matter - but I bet you that's not what this was, and I would further bet you that he was informed of the candidates pronouns and did know them.
- jitl 3y agoUsing “they” & “the candidate” or “TC” has been standard practice for interviews at my employers.
- bzax 3y agoHey what do you know, I found the lawsuit: "That same week, Bitwarden tasked Mr. Scharf with interviewing a potential employee whose “preferred pronouns” were in contradiction to Mr. Scharf’s religious beliefs. Mr. Scharf conducted the interview in a professional and respectful manner, avoiding the use of pronouns all together. Mr. Scharf assessed the interviewee favorably and recommended that the interviewee advance to the next stage of the interview process. Because of Mr. Scharf’s religious beliefs, in his notes regarding the interview, which were shared internally and not with the interviewee, Mr. Scharf did not use the interviewee’s requested pronouns."
- kmos17 3y agoThat sounds like such a disingenuous argument, he could have just selected he/him as his pronoun and be done with it. That is actually the gender he identified as. Instead he wants to use a pronoun that makes a political statement specifically targeting others he does not agree with.
- lostmsu 3y agoSo, exactly what they do?
- Nextgrid 3y agoIf the whole "pronouns" thing is about being whatever you want to be, then "assigned by god" is as valid as "xe/xer", "dino/dinosaurs" or whatever some people want to call themselves nowadays. Yes, both cases are something that a lot of people might consider stupid or childish, but the whole pronouns trend is that people should be "inclusive" and accepting of things they personally consider stupid or disagree with, so they should accept it.
- belltaco 3y agoThe intent is what counts. The intent here was to troll, not request accommodation. Employers and judges don't take kindly to that.
- Nextgrid 3y ago> The intent here was to troll How do you know? There are plenty of pronouns out there (basically all of them except the two genders and "they") that I still can't see anyone actually using seriously and not as a troll to make a statement - no different from what this guy is doing. The validity of a pronoun is a subjective concept at the end of the day. However, even in the absolute obvious case where he himself would've admitted that he is trolling, the right thing to do would still be to accept his troll pronouns and not give it a second thought, otherwise you're not only "feeding" the troll (by giving him a reaction) but kinda validating his point that the whole thing is BS and that in reality only certain pronouns that fit the current groupthink are allowed despite the claimed "inclusivity".
- AraceliHarker 3y ago"The Epoch Times reported." Hmmm...
- rvz 3y agoAnd? Is this article false information or not?
- cholantesh 3y agoIt's entirely fair to at least withhold judgement if not to just presume that yes, a pathological bullshit artist is bulshitting you.
- JasserInicide 3y ago[flagged] Lol, really?
- lostmsu 3y agoYes, not the first incident either. There was a flagged article (I assume since vouched for) about a kid getting arrested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34935780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34935780
- Krisjohn 3y agoHaving recently attempted to move from LastPass to Bitwarden, only to have to abandon it due to sudden changes that broke third party integration without consultation or a sensible solution, I'd say this whole drama on brand.
- Sunspark 3y agoWhy does this article have a photo of a random woman? It's not the VP, it's not the author and it's rather unlikely that it's the VP's lawyer.
- mixmastamyk 3y agoIt is the lawyer. I was confused also and looked up the filename of the image and it says something like "first_last_lawyer.jpg".
- Sunspark 3y agoSo it is! Good job finding that. They should have captioned the image like regular media does.
- readthenotes1 3y agoHow rude: "found himself in hot water when he chose to list “Assigned By God” as his preferred pronoun on his employee profile," Really if someone has a preferred pronoun, it should be used. That paragraph above should be: "found Assigned By God in hot water when Assigned By God chose to list “Assigned By God” as Assigned By God preferred pronoun on Assigned By God employee profile," Since there was only one preferred pronoun listed, I must assume that it is the same for all pronoun usages in the English language.
- sharts 3y agoYawn
- Timber-6539 3y agoWhy is this flagged?
- JasserInicide 3y agoYou know why: there's a lot of transpeople here that don't want this stuff questioned/discussed in any way, shape or form.
- infamouscow 3y agoMandating pronouns is absurd and stupid and its advocates resort to censorship by any means necessary to stifle reasonable discussion. These are evil people and they deserve everyone's maximum contempt. The good news is everyone can move the needle on this! It's clear in the comment section sees just how pathetic and fragile these ideas really are when put under the microscope.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]