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Even considering its heavy limitations, the Mercedes system is miles better than the Tesla, because it is actually useful. You can actually turn on the system a

Even considering its heavy limitations, the Mercedes system is miles better than the Tesla, because it is actually useful. You can actually turn on the system and do your email, or take a nap. Yes, the 40 mph limitation on highways seems to make it useless, but many highways get congested to the point where you are not going over 40 mph anyways, and those are the times when it is most frustrating to drive. And regarding the FSD, most youtube videos I have seen run into human intervention within 20 minutes or so. Going 60 minutes without human intervention is certainly possible if you get a bit lucky but that does not mean you should take your eyes off the road for a second. FSD still has to be constantly supervised, which makes it of very limited utility. At this stage it is still a fun experiment at most.

thegrim33 3y ago
"do your email, or take a nap" <- The definition of an SAE Level 3 system is that you must remain in the seat, prepared to take control immediately when the system requests you to. Taking a nap or otherwise not paying attention is not what such a system supports.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  > prepared to take control immediately I don't think that's correct. I've seen "in a certain amount of time" but you make it sound like it's a safety issue, which it's not, that being a key differentiation from a L2 system. When it can't drive it stops driving and you have to drive. If it's not a safety issue you could conceivably bee sleeping, as long as you can wake up in a timely manner. The SAE makes it clear that the car is driving at L3, and on that basis you would expect the transition to another driver would be graceful, just like with two human drivers.
  - olex 3y ago
    That "certain amount of time" is variable, but in practice is on the level of 10-15 seconds for the Mercedes system - at least that's what it was when it was first certified in Germany some time ago. It is designed to let you take your hands off the wheel and look at the scenery, but anything more than that is too much distraction for when it requires you to take over. And it will, because it's really not very capable at all - it's basically an advanced traffic jam autopilot that can follow other cars in a straight well marked line, that's it.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
      What would be great is the SAE tightened the definitions so there were standards of performance, maybe with different quality sublevels within each.
    - hristov 3y ago
      For person like me that takes very light naps when sitting, 10 seconds is plenty to wake up and take control. Also if I am using a tablet doing email or browsing or even playing games, 10 seconds is plenty of time to put the tablet away and grab the wheel.
      - rl3 3y ago
        >For person like me that takes very light naps when sitting, 10 seconds is plenty to wake up and take control. I'd argue that isn't remotely enough time to safely take control. You're betting your brain wakes up sufficiently in that time, and if it doesn't the consequences are potentially deadly. >Also if I am using a tablet doing email or browsing or even playing games, 10 seconds is plenty of time to put the tablet away and grab the wheel. That's a bit better from an alertness standpoint, but not from a situational awareness one. You're deprived of both context and situational awareness on the road. Some key details extend far beyond a 10-15 seconds, such as: another car driving erratically, lanes ending, line of sight on pedestrians or cyclists visible prior that are now occluded by traffic. The list goes on.
        worik 3y ago
        >>Also if I am using a tablet doing email or browsing or even playing games, 10 seconds is plenty of time > That's a bit better from an alertness standpoint How do you know? Subjective measurement of time is very inaccurate. I have experienced this, when I timed some regular activities I undertook every day, total habit. I would have said they took me ten seconds. When I timed them, it was forty five seconds. I have no faith in anybodies' perception of how long they can switch context like this unless they have objectively measured it I have heard that this has been studied, a quick web search turned up just this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0001691880900013 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/000169...
- GuB-42 3y ago
  I guess it is not ok to be asleep as even a loud alarm will take time to wake you up, but not paying attention, like when you are doing your email is fine. In fact, that's the entire point of level 3 autonomy. You are "on call" rather than "at work", so you must be prepared to act when the car rings. If the car doesn't ring, you are free to do whatever you want as long as you can hear the ring and take back control when it happens.
- torginus 3y ago
  Afaik the key differentiator of a L3 and a L2 system is that if you don't take control when the system requests you to, the L3 system can safely stop/pull aside while all bets are off with an L2 system.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    You remember wrong. That's the difference between L3 and L4. The L2/L3 difference is that with L2 you have to supervise at all times and you have to decide to take control.
iknowstuff 3y ago
Now try to look up videos of Mercedes’ L3 system in operation and you’ll see how hilarious this claim is. It shuts off immediately without a vehicle to follow in front of you. Good luck taking a nap and typing emails. L3 my ass.
- BoorishBears 3y ago
  You're not allowed to sleep, you need to take control within 10-15 seconds. And no, it doesn't turn off if there are no vehicles in front, but it does turn off above 45 MPH. On most highways you'll only be below 45 because of traffic. Above 45 they have a separate L2 system that requires "normal" attentiveness.
cscurmudgeon 3y ago
> And regarding the FSD, most youtube videos I have seen run into human intervention within 20 minutes or so. Going 60 minutes without human intervention is certainly possible if you get a bit lucky but that does not mean you should take your eyes off the road for a second. FSD still has to be constantly supervised, which makes it of very limited utility. At this stage it is still a fun experiment at most. Are there equivalent videos for Mercedes?
FormerBandmate 3y ago
Autopilot works fine in highways under 40 miles per hour. You still pay some attention but that’s also true with this, if traffic goes above 40 mph you have to take control in 2 seconds while Autopilot is more gradual

thegrim33 3y ago

"do your email, or take a nap" <- The definition of an SAE Level 3 system is that you must remain in the seat, prepared to take control immediately when the system requests you to. Taking a nap or otherwise not paying attention is not what such a system supports.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
> prepared to take control immediately I don't think that's correct. I've seen "in a certain amount of time" but you make it sound like it's a safety issue, which it's not, that being a key differentiation from a L2 system. When it can't drive it stops driving and you have to drive. If it's not a safety issue you could conceivably bee sleeping, as long as you can wake up in a timely manner. The SAE makes it clear that the car is driving at L3, and on that basis you would expect the transition to another driver would be graceful, just like with two human drivers.
- olex 3y ago
  That "certain amount of time" is variable, but in practice is on the level of 10-15 seconds for the Mercedes system - at least that's what it was when it was first certified in Germany some time ago. It is designed to let you take your hands off the wheel and look at the scenery, but anything more than that is too much distraction for when it requires you to take over. And it will, because it's really not very capable at all - it's basically an advanced traffic jam autopilot that can follow other cars in a straight well marked line, that's it.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    What would be great is the SAE tightened the definitions so there were standards of performance, maybe with different quality sublevels within each.
  - hristov 3y ago
    For person like me that takes very light naps when sitting, 10 seconds is plenty to wake up and take control. Also if I am using a tablet doing email or browsing or even playing games, 10 seconds is plenty of time to put the tablet away and grab the wheel.
    - rl3 3y ago
      >For person like me that takes very light naps when sitting, 10 seconds is plenty to wake up and take control. I'd argue that isn't remotely enough time to safely take control. You're betting your brain wakes up sufficiently in that time, and if it doesn't the consequences are potentially deadly. >Also if I am using a tablet doing email or browsing or even playing games, 10 seconds is plenty of time to put the tablet away and grab the wheel. That's a bit better from an alertness standpoint, but not from a situational awareness one. You're deprived of both context and situational awareness on the road. Some key details extend far beyond a 10-15 seconds, such as: another car driving erratically, lanes ending, line of sight on pedestrians or cyclists visible prior that are now occluded by traffic. The list goes on.
      - worik 3y ago
        >>Also if I am using a tablet doing email or browsing or even playing games, 10 seconds is plenty of time > That's a bit better from an alertness standpoint How do you know? Subjective measurement of time is very inaccurate. I have experienced this, when I timed some regular activities I undertook every day, total habit. I would have said they took me ten seconds. When I timed them, it was forty five seconds. I have no faith in anybodies' perception of how long they can switch context like this unless they have objectively measured it I have heard that this has been studied, a quick web search turned up just this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0001691880900013 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/000169...
GuB-42 3y ago
I guess it is not ok to be asleep as even a loud alarm will take time to wake you up, but not paying attention, like when you are doing your email is fine. In fact, that's the entire point of level 3 autonomy. You are "on call" rather than "at work", so you must be prepared to act when the car rings. If the car doesn't ring, you are free to do whatever you want as long as you can hear the ring and take back control when it happens.
torginus 3y ago
Afaik the key differentiator of a L3 and a L2 system is that if you don't take control when the system requests you to, the L3 system can safely stop/pull aside while all bets are off with an L2 system.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  You remember wrong. That's the difference between L3 and L4. The L2/L3 difference is that with L2 you have to supervise at all times and you have to decide to take control.

iknowstuff 3y ago

Now try to look up videos of Mercedes’ L3 system in operation and you’ll see how hilarious this claim is. It shuts off immediately without a vehicle to follow in front of you. Good luck taking a nap and typing emails. L3 my ass.

BoorishBears 3y ago
You're not allowed to sleep, you need to take control within 10-15 seconds. And no, it doesn't turn off if there are no vehicles in front, but it does turn off above 45 MPH. On most highways you'll only be below 45 because of traffic. Above 45 they have a separate L2 system that requires "normal" attentiveness.

cscurmudgeon 3y ago

> And regarding the FSD, most youtube videos I have seen run into human intervention within 20 minutes or so. Going 60 minutes without human intervention is certainly possible if you get a bit lucky but that does not mean you should take your eyes off the road for a second. FSD still has to be constantly supervised, which makes it of very limited utility. At this stage it is still a fun experiment at most. Are there equivalent videos for Mercedes?

FormerBandmate 3y ago

Autopilot works fine in highways under 40 miles per hour. You still pay some attention but that’s also true with this, if traffic goes above 40 mph you have to take control in 2 seconds while Autopilot is more gradual