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It’s fun to drop verbatim quotes from his manifesto into random internet discussions without attribution. A lot of people agree with his ideas without realizing
by hnuser847 3y ago
It’s fun to drop verbatim quotes from his manifesto into random internet discussions without attribution. A lot of people agree with his ideas without realizing it.
- znpy 3y agoone of the funniest things for me is the fact that many left-wing people add Kaczynski quotes without realizing that left-wing people are basically the first people to be criticized and almost mocked in Ted's main piece, "Industrial society and its future"
- timeon 3y agoNot sure why is funny agreeing with selected quotes while not agreeing with others.
- znpy 3y agowould you still stand by your point if the quote came from (extreme case) Adolf Hitler? if the answer is no... there you go.
- happytoexplain 3y agoThis doesn't seem like the tough question you think it is. I assume Hitler had some opinions that, taken away from the context of his goals, are reasonable to agree with. What makes you think it's an exception to the parent's point?
- krapp 3y agoHis "criticisms" of the left read like something a denizen of /pol/ or Reddit would come up with. It's entirely possible to see the merits of his arguments against technology while dismissing his deranged hatred of leftists, feminists, etc.
- piaste 3y agoThe OP literally asked to "attack the ideas, not the man", and here you go attacking the ideas solely because of the kind of men who share it... What do you mean by " it reads like something /pol/ or reddit would write "? Does Kaczynsky use tired cartoon memes? Does he accuse the left of insufficient weightlifting? Does he challenge them to a 1v1 in a Nintendo fighting game? What part of his criticism do you actually find wrong?
- FrustratedMonky 3y agoLol had not heard this one. The left has "insufficient weightlifting". Might be true. Could it be that on the left there are more endurance sports, for health. And on the right there are more muscle building sports, so they can strike cool poses with their guns?
- Vecr 3y agoIt's pretty common. Don't be surprised if you get called a dyel (DYEL, Do You Even Lift) lanklet (small, not fat or muscular) runcell (someone who runs to try to get women, but would be better off lifting).
- anigbrowl 3y agoThat's overly reductive. Kaczynski's political views continued to evolve while in prison; his later writings are notably different in tone.
- krapp 3y agoIndustrial Society and its Future is the only work anyone ever mentions, especially where Kaczynsci's anti-leftist politics are concerned.
- anigbrowl 3y agoThat's unfortunate because he expanded on ISAIF at length in his prison writing and took a more thoughtful and look at a lot of existing political tropes. For example, in his Anti-Tech Revolution* he lauds the tactics of early feminists' campaigns to obtain voting rights for women, and similarly deconstructs a lot of flaws in right wing ideology. I disagree with a lot of Kaczynski's ideas and methods, but I still regard him as an important thinker and wish people would read his output in full rather than rushing to have the hottest take (not meant as a dig at you, rather the avalanche of attempted zingers on Twitter and in the media over the weekend).
- ldehaan 3y ago[flagged]
- robobro 3y agoA lot of the "leftists" Ted K disagrees with in that work are not proper Marxists but SJW/radical liberals (what's called the American Left but has little relation to Marxist thought)
- Barrin92 3y agoVirtually everyone who quotes Kaczynski is aware of his statements on the political Left, it's just that nobody takes that particular aspect very personal or seriously given that ecological anarchism, Kaczynski's position, has always been overwhelmingly a left-wing position.
- pfffr 3y agoAnarcho primitivism is hardly "left wing"
- arp242 3y agoI would describe myself as left-wing, and I agree with some (not all) of his criticisms of "the left" in general. Turns out that left-wing people can have disagreements. Furthermore, I can reject argument X while simultaneously also accepting argument Y from the same person or book.
- numpad0 3y agoTurns out leftists love self criticism for self improvements. That’s inherently bad, right? (set aside that it often builds up to violent inner conflicts)
- znpy 3y ago> Turns out leftists love self criticism for self improvements. they really don't, and this is one of the reasons why there is so much fracturing in the left, usually.
- happytoexplain 3y agoIsn't that backwards? In-group criticism is how you get so-called "fracturing", which is arguably healthier (if less politically useful) than the alternative: "loyalty". I'd be highly suspicious if any group of tens of millions of people all ostensibly agreed on everything.
- pfffr 3y ago"Leftists" offended by these sentiments are most likely centrists. The goal of neoliberalism (read: the DNC) has been to shift the left to the center. This has been their objective for years. See: Obama, Biden, the Clintons. TK was post-left before it was cool.
- happytoexplain 3y agoWhy do you think they don't realize (or don't disagree with your premise)? I think you'd be surprised by how many people are not in fact one-dimensional stereotypes who must disagree with everything a person says just because they disagree with some things that person says. I'm also confused as to why you seem to imply that people should be that way.
- scaredginger 3y agoTo be fair, infighting is extremely common in left-wing circles
- Shinma 3y ago[flagged]
- duxup 3y agoDoes that matter?
- danbolt 3y agoI haven’t read the entirety of his manifesto, but his ideas always struck me as typical narratives that resonated with people’s anxieties about modernity. A bit of a bait and switch. Get attention with something shocking and violent, then appeal to worries through apocalyptic boogeymen. The solution, of course, is a sense of comforting tradition that the naturalness of the past is safe. A killer combo!
- molly0 3y agoAn interesting observation!
- madballster 3y agoThat however is unfortunately true for quotes from many of history's dark figures, be it Hitler, Stalin or Nero.
- timeon 3y agoWhy unfortunately? Quotes are just fragments.
- George83728 3y agoWhat are some good Nero quotes? Wikiquotes only has two; one of which is "I wish I could not write." which seems a bit ironic since it seems most of his writings are now gone.
- happytoexplain 3y agoThis isn't as indicative of ignorance or hypocrisy as it implies (and it comes off as a petty "gotcha" with an attitude of superiority). He said and did a lot of things. It's normal to variously agree and disagree with each thing in a vacuum. This is true of most political/societal figures, no matter how horrific they are, taken as a whole.
- HKH2 3y ago> This isn't as indicative of ignorance or hypocrisy as it implies (and it comes off as a petty "gotcha" with an attitude of superiority). I don't think it implies any of that. The GP just means some people can't or won't separate the art from the artist.
- Kye 3y agoI just wonder how many people who could have done better were blocked by the actions of all these artists people want to make excuses for. How many great works were we denied because someone insisted on making space for someone who repelled (or worse) better people?
- catiopatio 3y agoThe zero-sum command-economy view of free speech: we have to exercise prior restraint on what people can say to ensure that there’s room for the people we approve of to speak.
- happytoexplain 3y agoThis seems pretty un-generous. The parent is citing a real, straight-forward cause-and-effect which does not necessitate or even imply a zero-sum game, nor does it imply the extremist solution you're accusing them of supporting.
- Kye 3y agoI was struggling to figure out how to respond to them, but I think you got it. I had that famous Stephen Jay Gould quote in mind: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/99345-i-am-somehow-less-interested-in-the-weight-and-convolutions https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/99345-i-am-somehow-less-int... "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." My post was a call for being smarter about who we invest in. I always wonder about people who call for separating art and artist over such mediocre artistry.
- SergeAx 3y agoThis also works with some Hitler quotes, what's your point?
- HKH2 3y agoWhich ones?
- SergeAx 3y ago"If you want to shine like sun first you have to burn like it" "If freedom is short of weapons, we must compensate with willpower" "The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people" He was quite a speaker, old Adi.
- HaroldBolt78 3y ago[dead]
- mdp2021 3y ago> [Death in the battlefield] is what the youth is for, after all ...Which suggests (cpr. the "treasure" quote) how quote dropping is mostly a leisurely activity, given broad statements. > I use emotion for the many and reserve reason for the few ...Which suggests - hopefully - how quote dropping is mostly a leisurely activity, given its non exhaustive intrinsic nature. -- Edit: related (with the first branch): > He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future Put the three together ("treasure", "battlefield", "owning"), the whole idea gets a sinister tone; take "treasure" alone, it may even raise "awww"s - without substance.
- ginko 3y agoCompared to the Kaczinksy quotes from this thread I have to say that these are mostly lame truisms.
- lost_tourist 3y agoThat's because he took virtually all of his ideas from other people who said it better, and thus I'm not sure why one wouldn't quote those sources rather than a known terrorist and murderer? Young minds are often easily influenced and bad at separating the person and the message of the writing. It's kind of like inverse MAGA, where the cult of personality is the important thing and the content doesn't really matter, only its source.