6 ms·

No mention of MKUltra, it doesn’t excuse his behavior but does explain why he may have been pushed over the edge.

reaperman 3y ago
Yeah I don’t think it excuses it at all but I wonder at what point it would? If MKUltra had removed 70% of his brain, would that excuse his actions?
- wslh 3y ago
  Is there more precise and credible information about MKUltra program and Ted K.?
  - meepmorp 3y ago
    No. The only thing that's really documented is that he participated in a psychology experiment at Harvard. People have alleged that it was part of MKULTRA, but there's nothing to support that beyond allegations and some circumstantial things (e.g., Murray consulted for the OSS on a profile of Hitler during the war). There were also just a lot of unethical experiments done on people in the 50s and 60s.
    - wslh 3y ago
      Isn't weird that Ted hasn't written about this? I mean, based on his writing style and ideas skipping talking about this experience as a lab rat seems like a missing piece of a specific puzzle.
    - surfingdino 3y ago
      This. The CIA story is likely based on the fact that Henry A. Murray did work for the OSS, the precursor to the CIA. Kaczynski may have been taking part in the experiments that led to the creation of the Thematic Apperception Test. The CIA may have been interested in the results of these experiments as all intelligence agencies are.
- somenameforme 3y ago
  It's not about forgiveness, it's about the story. MKUltra is a critical factor in this tale. And from a journalistic and social point of view, society would be a far better place if more people knew about MKUltra [1] than do. Beyond that it's also important to ever emphasize that actions have consequences which may not always be easy to predict. One of the countless reasons Machiavellianism is absolutely idiotic. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra
  - sameolddiffterm 3y ago
    They still do it. It's still under the cover of front organizations. It's called research. They usually target people that don't follow the grain. One group that is targeted are expats, nomads, etc... Due to the rules/laws/regulations that don't apply because their subjects are traveling and in a temporal state and are abroad they can get away with much more.
    - notquitesurebut 3y ago
      [flagged]
- ajhurliman 3y ago
  This line of thinking has always puzzled me. At some point one’s brain must be so compromised that we really can’t expect them to function as a human, but most people’s reaction to that is “excusing” their behavior. If you’re willing to admit that they don’t really have self-agency at that point, don’t they become an object at that point? Like we would have no problem putting down a dog that bit a child, let alone a dog that blew up buildings. The only reason we’re so accepting of putting down the dog is its lack of human status. In our courts, claiming insanity seems to give you a defense against crimes you’ve committed but also maintaining all the rights and privileges of personhood.
  - edgyquant 3y ago
    Not really. Temporary insanity maybe but I think that’s harder to prove. Insanity pleas get you sent to a medical prison where they keep you low on zombifying drugs.
  - morelisp 3y ago
    I don't think you know what an insanity claim entails. You absolutely give up rights and privileges if you "win" by invoking it.
  - anon291 3y ago
    Well .. I think prison was a good place for him but I also think his manifesto is coherent and should be more widely read.
api 3y ago
A big chunk of his manifesto reads like very personal grievances because it probably is. He’s doing the usual defensive thing of globalizing and generalizing something that is actually profoundly personal. Kaczynski was a victim of unethical human experimentation.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
You'd have a point if other subjects of MK-Ultra allowed a similar trajectory as Kaczynski. Were there other cases of self-destruction? I don't even know how many people were subjected to these experiments.
- jscipione 3y ago
  Brittney Spears comes to mind, she is still under a conservatorship after her mk-ultra caused mental break.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    MK ULTRA stopped in 1973 as far as I know. Claiming that Britney Spears’ mental issues are caused by this seems novel and I’ve never heard of this before. Do you have a news letter I can subscribe to to hear more of your insights?
    - jscipione 3y ago
      The program continued under a different classified name. Spears gave testimony of abuse by various doctors during her trial. You’ll have to decide for yourself if you think this is related to mk-ultra or not, but many do. There’s also circumstantial evidence surrounding the Mickey Mouse Club and widespread abuse of child actors stretching back decades including everyone’s favorite intelligence asset: the late great Jeffery Epstein. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/24/1009858617/britney-spears-transcript-court-hearing-conservatorship https://www.npr.org/2021/06/24/1009858617/britney-spears-tra...
    - krapp 3y ago
      The modern conspiracy theory version of MKUltra is known as "Project Monarch"[0,1]. Basically that various celebrities are being conditioned by "trauma based mind control programming" to engage in satantic ritual sex slavery for "the elites." [0]https://www.vice.com/en/article/9bne7e/the-monarch-mind-control-mystique https://www.vice.com/en/article/9bne7e/the-monarch-mind-cont... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_O%27Brien_(conspiracy_theorist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_O%27Brien_(conspiracy_th...

Yeah I don’t think it excuses it at all but I wonder at what point it would? If MKUltra had removed 70% of his brain, would that excuse his actions?

wslh 3y ago
Is there more precise and credible information about MKUltra program and Ted K.?
- meepmorp 3y ago
  No. The only thing that's really documented is that he participated in a psychology experiment at Harvard. People have alleged that it was part of MKULTRA, but there's nothing to support that beyond allegations and some circumstantial things (e.g., Murray consulted for the OSS on a profile of Hitler during the war). There were also just a lot of unethical experiments done on people in the 50s and 60s.
  - wslh 3y ago
    Isn't weird that Ted hasn't written about this? I mean, based on his writing style and ideas skipping talking about this experience as a lab rat seems like a missing piece of a specific puzzle.
  - surfingdino 3y ago
    This. The CIA story is likely based on the fact that Henry A. Murray did work for the OSS, the precursor to the CIA. Kaczynski may have been taking part in the experiments that led to the creation of the Thematic Apperception Test. The CIA may have been interested in the results of these experiments as all intelligence agencies are.
somenameforme 3y ago
It's not about forgiveness, it's about the story. MKUltra is a critical factor in this tale. And from a journalistic and social point of view, society would be a far better place if more people knew about MKUltra [1] than do. Beyond that it's also important to ever emphasize that actions have consequences which may not always be easy to predict. One of the countless reasons Machiavellianism is absolutely idiotic. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra
- sameolddiffterm 3y ago
  They still do it. It's still under the cover of front organizations. It's called research. They usually target people that don't follow the grain. One group that is targeted are expats, nomads, etc... Due to the rules/laws/regulations that don't apply because their subjects are traveling and in a temporal state and are abroad they can get away with much more.
  - notquitesurebut 3y ago
    [flagged]
ajhurliman 3y ago
This line of thinking has always puzzled me. At some point one’s brain must be so compromised that we really can’t expect them to function as a human, but most people’s reaction to that is “excusing” their behavior. If you’re willing to admit that they don’t really have self-agency at that point, don’t they become an object at that point? Like we would have no problem putting down a dog that bit a child, let alone a dog that blew up buildings. The only reason we’re so accepting of putting down the dog is its lack of human status. In our courts, claiming insanity seems to give you a defense against crimes you’ve committed but also maintaining all the rights and privileges of personhood.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  Not really. Temporary insanity maybe but I think that’s harder to prove. Insanity pleas get you sent to a medical prison where they keep you low on zombifying drugs.
- morelisp 3y ago
  I don't think you know what an insanity claim entails. You absolutely give up rights and privileges if you "win" by invoking it.
- anon291 3y ago
  Well .. I think prison was a good place for him but I also think his manifesto is coherent and should be more widely read.

api 3y ago

A big chunk of his manifesto reads like very personal grievances because it probably is. He’s doing the usual defensive thing of globalizing and generalizing something that is actually profoundly personal. Kaczynski was a victim of unethical human experimentation.

JKCalhoun 3y ago

You'd have a point if other subjects of MK-Ultra allowed a similar trajectory as Kaczynski. Were there other cases of self-destruction? I don't even know how many people were subjected to these experiments.

jscipione 3y ago
Brittney Spears comes to mind, she is still under a conservatorship after her mk-ultra caused mental break.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  MK ULTRA stopped in 1973 as far as I know. Claiming that Britney Spears’ mental issues are caused by this seems novel and I’ve never heard of this before. Do you have a news letter I can subscribe to to hear more of your insights?
  - jscipione 3y ago
    The program continued under a different classified name. Spears gave testimony of abuse by various doctors during her trial. You’ll have to decide for yourself if you think this is related to mk-ultra or not, but many do. There’s also circumstantial evidence surrounding the Mickey Mouse Club and widespread abuse of child actors stretching back decades including everyone’s favorite intelligence asset: the late great Jeffery Epstein. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/24/1009858617/britney-spears-transcript-court-hearing-conservatorship https://www.npr.org/2021/06/24/1009858617/britney-spears-tra...
  - krapp 3y ago
    The modern conspiracy theory version of MKUltra is known as "Project Monarch"[0,1]. Basically that various celebrities are being conditioned by "trauma based mind control programming" to engage in satantic ritual sex slavery for "the elites." [0]https://www.vice.com/en/article/9bne7e/the-monarch-mind-control-mystique https://www.vice.com/en/article/9bne7e/the-monarch-mind-cont... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_O%27Brien_(conspiracy_theorist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_O%27Brien_(conspiracy_th...