5 ms·

In a way I admire committed minimalists. But I often wonder what their long term lifestyle is like. Surely many of them are single (or they only count the items

In a way I admire committed minimalists. But I often wonder what their long term lifestyle is like. Surely many of them are single (or they only count the items which are solely theirs). They surely rent at a higher rate than own property. They surely own vehicles at a lower rate. And so on. I just get this picture of a person in an urban area, living alone in a studio apartment, dependent upon everyone else for basically everything.

dublinben 3y ago
I’m fond of the conspiracy theory that the rise of minimalism is actually propaganda to placate Millennials who can’t afford the same level of material comfort as their parents and other earlier generations enjoyed.
- digdugdirk 3y ago
  Or a conscious choice to live an alternative lifestyle to their parents. Seeing an unattainable future and choosing a separate path.
- tnel77 3y ago
  Same with having children. “I don’t even want kids. They are needy, expensive, and tie you down.” All true, but having kids was never a choice for you given your financial situation so let’s not pretend you had a say in the matter.
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    I agree with you but I don't think it's a financial thing but a psychological/maturity thing. People have kids at all income levels. For every one who claims they can't afford kids - someone is raising a family on that same income.
    - est31 3y ago
      Yes but one of the most common desires is that you want your children to have a better childhood and life than yourself. Some people don't care or don't explicitly make the choice to get children, they just get them. But some people won't get children if they can't provide an environment that is at least as good as the one their parents provided to them.
      - OccamsMirror 3y ago
        People need to learn that material possessions are way less important than emotional environment. For most of us, being better parents is about how we parent. Not what we can afford.
        dalyons 3y ago
        Childcare, education, housing (often tied together) and health care. Those are the big 4 expenses that are killing fertility rates, and only one is somewhat material.
        est31 3y ago
        All of them are tied to money, really. If you are rich, then you can afford nannies (or a stay at home parent, this is nowadays a luxury too), housing, and if you are in a district with high property taxes, your public school is well funded. College is also easier if you don't rely on scholarships or on your children to work so that they can support you. Health care also suddenly becomes affordable with money (although in the US for big things it's still inaccessible). In general, if you get N children, then you either favor one child, or each child gets 1/N of the inheritance. Same goes for money available for sending your kid to college. Meaning, as a rule of thumb, the more children you get, the poorer those children will be from that point of view. Like a single can live well from €2k euro per month in most of Germany, but for a family with 3 children the same sum is very little. And of course there is the entire dateability aspect, too. People with higher income are seen as more attractive than those with lower income.
    - tnel77 3y ago
      That’s true. I meant more so for those that purposeful have children. My brother had two children that were definitely unplanned.
      - xyzelement 3y ago
        That's what I am referring to as well. Plenty of people at income X intentionally have children while plenty of people at 5X lament not being able to afford them. I think this is true for every X. I suspect income has a negative correlation with the number of children in general, if anything.
  - Gigachad 3y ago
    It’s always a choice. People in 3rd world countries are having 5 kids in a mud hut without doctors. It might not be a choice to have kids, and a new car while also going to the cafe every day. But having kids is always an option.
- nebula8804 3y ago
  What if its just Millennials discovering it own their own as a result of their reduced standard of living? The powers that be would want maximum consumption and minimalism goes against that no? Same probably goes for "vanlife". It is millennials just realizing they cant afford a home ever and so they improvise with what they can resource.
  - mantas 3y ago
    Consumption is not just buying things. And even in buying things, many so-called minimalists still buy a lot, maybe less in tonnage, but GDP-wise they still spend a lot of money. Of course, there are zen style minimalists. But many seem to be in it for aesthetic.
  - Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
    Where have you been? TPTB are desperately trying to make you poorer by banning cars, banning air travel, banning meat, and inflating the fuck out of our money.
    - mym1990 3y ago
      Oof, was really hoping for a /s at the end of this one.
  - mym1990 3y ago
    Vanlife is still very costly if you try to maintain any kinds of creature comforts. I think it is more so millennials seeing the romanticized side of it on social media, and then finding out its actually a lot of work and you are one break down from being literally homeless.
- Thorrez 3y ago
  My grandma grew up in the US without even indoor plumbing. She had to use an outhouse. She's still alive today.
- Thorrez 3y ago
  OTOH, if you're poor, it might be best to save every item in case it becomes useful later, whereas a rich minimalist can afford to give away or sell for cheap everything not needed right now, knowing that replacements can be bought when necessary.
- roncesvalles 3y ago
  To me, minimalism seems like a natural reaction to the transient lifestyles that people live now. A generation or two ago, many would grow up and settle down in the same town or county with 4 years of college being the most time that one spent outside their hometown. If you have a permanent home, it's easier to invest in filling it with stuff. Today I hesitate to buy anything that I can't pack in a suitcase or wouldn't feel comfortable throwing away or donating to Goodwill in ~2 years.
  - pers0n 3y ago
    Most of the gung-ho minimalists are upper middle class or rich, they may have only a sofa and coffee table and a lamp in their $6000 a month apartment but those 3 items cost over $10,000.
  - dublinben 3y ago
    Americans are actually less mobile than they used to be. Young people even more so. https://www.trulia.com/research/why-millennials-move/ https://www.trulia.com/research/why-millennials-move/
- mo_42 3y ago
  Millennial here and half-baked minimalist here. At least it’s not true for me. For all my life I’ve been drowned in objects. My parents are still telling that I had so many toys. Minimalism is a way for becoming aware of the objects around me. Not so much about the pure number of objects. Since, I started thinking about what should be part of my life and also letting go of things I don’t really need, my savings rate has skyrocketed. Also, many things I own have much higher quality than my parents or grandparents. I guess minimalism is a counter-movement to super-cheap consumerism.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
    Precisely. We are constantly bombarded by messages to buy buy buy. Fill that hole in your life with plastic crap that will surely be the thing you were missing that finally makes you happy. And when that doesn't work, well, just buy some more! The trick they pulled is telling us all that inconvenience is bad and needs to be eliminated, but what I've come to see is that life happens in inconveniences, and consumerism tells us we should trade our life for their junk.
- LunaSea 3y ago
  You can add tiny houses and van life to the list.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  The massive carbon emissions campaigning seems to be this. Since generations of young and hard working people are being so heavily exploited that they can't afford things, blast out the message that they are saving the world from being doomed by not having a vehicle, not traveling, not having land, not eating quality food, and most importantly: not having children so that they aren't interrupted in their duties of paying taxes and profits. It is completely free to convince people they are saving the planet by living less than others.
hotpotamus 3y ago
Steve Jobs was known for living in such a way that I don't think was entirely a put on. He did own vehicles but refused to put license plates on them apparently for aesthetic reasons. Ironically, it seems like having a lot of wealth helps with the minimalist thing.
- sliken 3y ago
  Heh, don't think that fits. I heard he figured out the related california law that you had 1-3 months before you'd get a legal penalty for not putting a new plate on the car. So he worked it out with the car dealer to swap cars every 1-3 months, so he could park whenever he wanted and never get a ticket.
emodendroket 3y ago
To be honest it's not like the guy in a suburban home is self-reliant either; it's just easier to kid yourself. But I do agree that a picture-perfect minimalist lifestyle will face some challenge if you live with others, especially kids.
sliken 3y ago
Dunno, seems like we might be past peak materialism. Do people really need 2000 ft^2 with a 2 car garage just packed with crap. So much so that they often buy things because they can't find what they own. Even renting storage units on top of a full size house is surprisingly common. China closets, album collections, file cabinents, many book cases packed, shelves of games/cartriges/cdroms, many different kinds of sports equipment not used for a decade, dead appliances, 3 toolboxes filled with crappy tools, drawers filled with disposable pens, large closets packed with clothes not worn in a decade etc. Every trash day with overflowing garbage cans from all the disposable stuff. Buying decent shoes, tools, a decent pen, a decent razor, and decent wallet can last decades. Even more disposable things like cars, computers, stereos/electronics can last a decade or more, but often have a somewhat higher cost up front/but cheaper to own per year. In general if it's made in plastic my first conclusion is that it's not worth it. Don't eat out of plastic, drink out of it, don't use a plastic keychain, even cans these days are plastic lined. Don't even touch it if you can avoid it. Yes this kind of attitude is possible even with wife, kids, and a dog. If it's not been used in the last year considering upcycling, donating, giving it away, or pitching it.
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  200 sq ft sounds great, just don't fill it with crap.
0zemp3c 3y ago
[flagged]
hrdwdmrbl 3y ago
Yeah that is kind of me. I like it though
kandel 3y ago
Yeah it's great. You can pack up and leave whenever. Why get tied down?

dublinben 3y ago

I’m fond of the conspiracy theory that the rise of minimalism is actually propaganda to placate Millennials who can’t afford the same level of material comfort as their parents and other earlier generations enjoyed.

digdugdirk 3y ago
Or a conscious choice to live an alternative lifestyle to their parents. Seeing an unattainable future and choosing a separate path.
tnel77 3y ago
Same with having children. “I don’t even want kids. They are needy, expensive, and tie you down.” All true, but having kids was never a choice for you given your financial situation so let’s not pretend you had a say in the matter.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  I agree with you but I don't think it's a financial thing but a psychological/maturity thing. People have kids at all income levels. For every one who claims they can't afford kids - someone is raising a family on that same income.
  - est31 3y ago
    Yes but one of the most common desires is that you want your children to have a better childhood and life than yourself. Some people don't care or don't explicitly make the choice to get children, they just get them. But some people won't get children if they can't provide an environment that is at least as good as the one their parents provided to them.
    - OccamsMirror 3y ago
      People need to learn that material possessions are way less important than emotional environment. For most of us, being better parents is about how we parent. Not what we can afford.
      - dalyons 3y ago
        Childcare, education, housing (often tied together) and health care. Those are the big 4 expenses that are killing fertility rates, and only one is somewhat material.
        est31 3y ago
        All of them are tied to money, really. If you are rich, then you can afford nannies (or a stay at home parent, this is nowadays a luxury too), housing, and if you are in a district with high property taxes, your public school is well funded. College is also easier if you don't rely on scholarships or on your children to work so that they can support you. Health care also suddenly becomes affordable with money (although in the US for big things it's still inaccessible). In general, if you get N children, then you either favor one child, or each child gets 1/N of the inheritance. Same goes for money available for sending your kid to college. Meaning, as a rule of thumb, the more children you get, the poorer those children will be from that point of view. Like a single can live well from €2k euro per month in most of Germany, but for a family with 3 children the same sum is very little. And of course there is the entire dateability aspect, too. People with higher income are seen as more attractive than those with lower income.
  - tnel77 3y ago
    That’s true. I meant more so for those that purposeful have children. My brother had two children that were definitely unplanned.
    - xyzelement 3y ago
      That's what I am referring to as well. Plenty of people at income X intentionally have children while plenty of people at 5X lament not being able to afford them. I think this is true for every X. I suspect income has a negative correlation with the number of children in general, if anything.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  It’s always a choice. People in 3rd world countries are having 5 kids in a mud hut without doctors. It might not be a choice to have kids, and a new car while also going to the cafe every day. But having kids is always an option.
nebula8804 3y ago
What if its just Millennials discovering it own their own as a result of their reduced standard of living? The powers that be would want maximum consumption and minimalism goes against that no? Same probably goes for "vanlife". It is millennials just realizing they cant afford a home ever and so they improvise with what they can resource.
- mantas 3y ago
  Consumption is not just buying things. And even in buying things, many so-called minimalists still buy a lot, maybe less in tonnage, but GDP-wise they still spend a lot of money. Of course, there are zen style minimalists. But many seem to be in it for aesthetic.
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
  Where have you been? TPTB are desperately trying to make you poorer by banning cars, banning air travel, banning meat, and inflating the fuck out of our money.
  - mym1990 3y ago
    Oof, was really hoping for a /s at the end of this one.
- mym1990 3y ago
  Vanlife is still very costly if you try to maintain any kinds of creature comforts. I think it is more so millennials seeing the romanticized side of it on social media, and then finding out its actually a lot of work and you are one break down from being literally homeless.
Thorrez 3y ago
My grandma grew up in the US without even indoor plumbing. She had to use an outhouse. She's still alive today.
Thorrez 3y ago
OTOH, if you're poor, it might be best to save every item in case it becomes useful later, whereas a rich minimalist can afford to give away or sell for cheap everything not needed right now, knowing that replacements can be bought when necessary.
roncesvalles 3y ago
To me, minimalism seems like a natural reaction to the transient lifestyles that people live now. A generation or two ago, many would grow up and settle down in the same town or county with 4 years of college being the most time that one spent outside their hometown. If you have a permanent home, it's easier to invest in filling it with stuff. Today I hesitate to buy anything that I can't pack in a suitcase or wouldn't feel comfortable throwing away or donating to Goodwill in ~2 years.
- pers0n 3y ago
  Most of the gung-ho minimalists are upper middle class or rich, they may have only a sofa and coffee table and a lamp in their $6000 a month apartment but those 3 items cost over $10,000.
- dublinben 3y ago
  Americans are actually less mobile than they used to be. Young people even more so. https://www.trulia.com/research/why-millennials-move/ https://www.trulia.com/research/why-millennials-move/
mo_42 3y ago
Millennial here and half-baked minimalist here. At least it’s not true for me. For all my life I’ve been drowned in objects. My parents are still telling that I had so many toys. Minimalism is a way for becoming aware of the objects around me. Not so much about the pure number of objects. Since, I started thinking about what should be part of my life and also letting go of things I don’t really need, my savings rate has skyrocketed. Also, many things I own have much higher quality than my parents or grandparents. I guess minimalism is a counter-movement to super-cheap consumerism.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
  Precisely. We are constantly bombarded by messages to buy buy buy. Fill that hole in your life with plastic crap that will surely be the thing you were missing that finally makes you happy. And when that doesn't work, well, just buy some more! The trick they pulled is telling us all that inconvenience is bad and needs to be eliminated, but what I've come to see is that life happens in inconveniences, and consumerism tells us we should trade our life for their junk.
LunaSea 3y ago
You can add tiny houses and van life to the list.
carlosjobim 3y ago
The massive carbon emissions campaigning seems to be this. Since generations of young and hard working people are being so heavily exploited that they can't afford things, blast out the message that they are saving the world from being doomed by not having a vehicle, not traveling, not having land, not eating quality food, and most importantly: not having children so that they aren't interrupted in their duties of paying taxes and profits. It is completely free to convince people they are saving the planet by living less than others.

hotpotamus 3y ago

Steve Jobs was known for living in such a way that I don't think was entirely a put on. He did own vehicles but refused to put license plates on them apparently for aesthetic reasons. Ironically, it seems like having a lot of wealth helps with the minimalist thing.

sliken 3y ago
Heh, don't think that fits. I heard he figured out the related california law that you had 1-3 months before you'd get a legal penalty for not putting a new plate on the car. So he worked it out with the car dealer to swap cars every 1-3 months, so he could park whenever he wanted and never get a ticket.

emodendroket 3y ago

To be honest it's not like the guy in a suburban home is self-reliant either; it's just easier to kid yourself. But I do agree that a picture-perfect minimalist lifestyle will face some challenge if you live with others, especially kids.

sliken 3y ago

Dunno, seems like we might be past peak materialism. Do people really need 2000 ft^2 with a 2 car garage just packed with crap. So much so that they often buy things because they can't find what they own. Even renting storage units on top of a full size house is surprisingly common. China closets, album collections, file cabinents, many book cases packed, shelves of games/cartriges/cdroms, many different kinds of sports equipment not used for a decade, dead appliances, 3 toolboxes filled with crappy tools, drawers filled with disposable pens, large closets packed with clothes not worn in a decade etc. Every trash day with overflowing garbage cans from all the disposable stuff. Buying decent shoes, tools, a decent pen, a decent razor, and decent wallet can last decades. Even more disposable things like cars, computers, stereos/electronics can last a decade or more, but often have a somewhat higher cost up front/but cheaper to own per year. In general if it's made in plastic my first conclusion is that it's not worth it. Don't eat out of plastic, drink out of it, don't use a plastic keychain, even cans these days are plastic lined. Don't even touch it if you can avoid it. Yes this kind of attitude is possible even with wife, kids, and a dog. If it's not been used in the last year considering upcycling, donating, giving it away, or pitching it.

kwhitefoot 3y ago
200 sq ft sounds great, just don't fill it with crap.

0zemp3c 3y ago

[flagged]

hrdwdmrbl 3y ago

Yeah that is kind of me. I like it though

kandel 3y ago

Yeah it's great. You can pack up and leave whenever. Why get tied down?