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I thought about moving to an Asian country as a white person. I asked myself: What does it mean to be Korean? What does it mean to be Taiwanese? What does it me

I thought about moving to an Asian country as a white person. I asked myself: What does it mean to be Korean? What does it mean to be Taiwanese? What does it mean to be Malaysian? In most Asian countries ethnicity not a wildly different concept than nationality. So to be Korean means you share a history with other Koreans. America, at least the liberal side of America, has tried to push the definition of being American towards a set of ideals and values. Someone is not American because they had ancestors who killed british and grew up in a church, but because they believe in human rights and freedom, and that those are things worth sacrificing for. Without a values based idea of nationality, it means that other nationalities come to exploit your opportunities and you as a country are letting them in to exploit them. If you've never contemplated the question "What does it mean to be an american?" this is one of the most interesting political/structure of society reads I've read to date: https://www.amacad.org/publication/what-does-it-mean-be-american https://www.amacad.org/publication/what-does-it-mean-be-amer... This "are we an ethnic society", "are we a grouping of ethnic societies", or "are we a values based society" idea makes the state of modern American politics make a lot more sense.

carlosjobim 3y ago
Are you a society? Or just people living within the same economic zone and with the same language?
contrarian1234 3y ago
While your central thesis probably has merit, I just want to point out that the way you present it sounds incredibly ignorant and simplistic to anyone in Asia. Maybe Japan and Korea are more ethnostates.. but it's sorta ridiculous to say it's an Asian things Within 5 minutes of arriving in Kuala Lumpur you will see more diversity than in most American cities - with equal parts Indian, Chinese and Bumi (ethnically Indonesian). I mean.. maybe they all just look "asian" to you, but they're distinct to anyone from the region. On top of that you will regularly see people from the middle east and elsewhere. The Chinese, outside of han-nationalist circles, typically do not see themselves as an ethnostate (but by contrast the Taiwanese sort of do) - that was sort of the central theme of the 2008 olympics.. and I've met many minorities in China that would be confused and maybe offended if you suggested they weren't Chinese So by extension Taiwanese also view themselves as Chinese, but typically not part of China geopolitically. ( a lot of the issues here stem from linguistics.. b/c in Chinese there are many separate terms to distinguish things like ethnic Han, culturally Chinese, Chinese citizens of the PRC and other subtleties - I'm not going to pretend to understand all of them) Thailand is also incredibly pluralistic, though minorities are more integrated into one culture. There isn't typically "founding father" hero worship and the same ideological cohesion as in the United States, but it's also simplistic to say that doesn't exist at all. You have for instance Sun Yat-sen who is .. sort of founding-father-like (his ideology doesn't seem as coherant as in the US though) . If you want ideological though, the most obvious is Maoism. Ideological purity is sort of unacceptable in the post-Cultural Revolution period, but it's still a powerful force in their society
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Han runs China with a strong majority. For western provinces where minorities are a majority, the symbolic governor will always be an ethnic minority (eg Tibet will have a Tibetan governor), but the real power will be held by the Han party secretary. Some of the party secretaries that have run Tibet and Xinjiang are famous hardliners that have probably created more problems than they’ve solved.
  - contrarian1234 3y ago
    Interesting stuff. I won't pretend to understand the inner workings of the party haha. I have heard they very aggressively rotate party members so that they don't establish deep rooted regional networks - and that you aren't ever assigned from the region you're from. So that seems to be in line with what you illustrate. I also know they have intense quotas for minorities and affirmative action - but with the demographics involved I don't imagine you'd really get anyone other than Han executives most of the time Though in the end it's a bit besides the point. The state and the people concerned for the most part don't perceive themselves as an ethnostate - and it's their selfidentification which is at play here. I could see it changing - but a Han ethnostate would be a bit scary. It'd mean loosing legitimacy over minority areas - but there are huge Han minorities in most Asian countries. So far the Chinese state hasn't pushed the line that it's got an obligation to represent their interests (though it's come up) It's interesting that by contrast in my experience in Taiwan there is much more of a perception that they're a Han ethnostate. There are a few "aboriginal" and other minorities - but it's mostly viewed as a curiosity
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      I think the ethnostate label isn’t really accurate in China. Paternalistic state is more accurate, Confucian values still hold. The goal isn’t create a monoethnic state, rather the Han see themselves as best apt to govern and guide the other ethnic groups. A lot of the ethnic tension simply comes from minorities seeing such paternalism as condescending.
      - 3y ago

carlosjobim 3y ago

Are you a society? Or just people living within the same economic zone and with the same language?

contrarian1234 3y ago

While your central thesis probably has merit, I just want to point out that the way you present it sounds incredibly ignorant and simplistic to anyone in Asia. Maybe Japan and Korea are more ethnostates.. but it's sorta ridiculous to say it's an Asian things Within 5 minutes of arriving in Kuala Lumpur you will see more diversity than in most American cities - with equal parts Indian, Chinese and Bumi (ethnically Indonesian). I mean.. maybe they all just look "asian" to you, but they're distinct to anyone from the region. On top of that you will regularly see people from the middle east and elsewhere. The Chinese, outside of han-nationalist circles, typically do not see themselves as an ethnostate (but by contrast the Taiwanese sort of do) - that was sort of the central theme of the 2008 olympics.. and I've met many minorities in China that would be confused and maybe offended if you suggested they weren't Chinese So by extension Taiwanese also view themselves as Chinese, but typically not part of China geopolitically. ( a lot of the issues here stem from linguistics.. b/c in Chinese there are many separate terms to distinguish things like ethnic Han, culturally Chinese, Chinese citizens of the PRC and other subtleties - I'm not going to pretend to understand all of them) Thailand is also incredibly pluralistic, though minorities are more integrated into one culture. There isn't typically "founding father" hero worship and the same ideological cohesion as in the United States, but it's also simplistic to say that doesn't exist at all. You have for instance Sun Yat-sen who is .. sort of founding-father-like (his ideology doesn't seem as coherant as in the US though) . If you want ideological though, the most obvious is Maoism. Ideological purity is sort of unacceptable in the post-Cultural Revolution period, but it's still a powerful force in their society

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Han runs China with a strong majority. For western provinces where minorities are a majority, the symbolic governor will always be an ethnic minority (eg Tibet will have a Tibetan governor), but the real power will be held by the Han party secretary. Some of the party secretaries that have run Tibet and Xinjiang are famous hardliners that have probably created more problems than they’ve solved.
- contrarian1234 3y ago
  Interesting stuff. I won't pretend to understand the inner workings of the party haha. I have heard they very aggressively rotate party members so that they don't establish deep rooted regional networks - and that you aren't ever assigned from the region you're from. So that seems to be in line with what you illustrate. I also know they have intense quotas for minorities and affirmative action - but with the demographics involved I don't imagine you'd really get anyone other than Han executives most of the time Though in the end it's a bit besides the point. The state and the people concerned for the most part don't perceive themselves as an ethnostate - and it's their selfidentification which is at play here. I could see it changing - but a Han ethnostate would be a bit scary. It'd mean loosing legitimacy over minority areas - but there are huge Han minorities in most Asian countries. So far the Chinese state hasn't pushed the line that it's got an obligation to represent their interests (though it's come up) It's interesting that by contrast in my experience in Taiwan there is much more of a perception that they're a Han ethnostate. There are a few "aboriginal" and other minorities - but it's mostly viewed as a curiosity
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I think the ethnostate label isn’t really accurate in China. Paternalistic state is more accurate, Confucian values still hold. The goal isn’t create a monoethnic state, rather the Han see themselves as best apt to govern and guide the other ethnic groups. A lot of the ethnic tension simply comes from minorities seeing such paternalism as condescending.
    - 3y ago