6 ms·

How the DEA scrubbed Thomas jefferson's poppy garden from public memory

141 points by pera 3y ago

sp332 3y ago
Now do eggplants.
Trouble_007 3y ago
Up in a Puff of Smoke! >Employees even gathered the store's souvenir T-shirts with silkscreened photos of Monticello poppies on the chest -- and burned them.
zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
Growing poppies isn't illegal
- BowBun 3y ago
  No one said that, read the article. > Jefferson had planted opium poppies in his medicinal garden, and opium poppies are now deemed illegal Growing with the intent to produce opium is illegal. By continuing his tradition in the museum, it was deemed a continuation of production for drugs and so probably came under scrutiny. I'm sure they could regrow a garden for decorative purposes if they actually did that and were clear about it.
  - pera 3y ago
    I really don't know anything about this topic but according to the DEA it is "technically" illegal: https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/ROA-Times/issues/1991/rt9104/910419/04190796.htm https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/ROA-Times/issues/1991/rt9...
    - BowBun 3y ago
      That's a cool source that contradicts the article posted originally. In yours they say they won't prosecute, but in the article it claims they were low-key threatened into getting rid of the garden. Odd.
      - pera 3y ago
        Yeah found it after posting the article, although I wouldn't say it contradicts the story (except for the title), this is my interpretation: random DEA agent sees something [1] that looks probably illegal during a visit and notifies Monticello, Monticello then attempts to confirm this with DEA through more official channels, who then clarifies that it is technically illegal but they wont persecute, even then Monticello decides to remove the plants and seeds [2]. 1- `A DEA man noticed the store was selling packets of "Thomas Jefferson's Monticello Poppies."` 2- `Nobody told them to do this, but, under the circumstances, no one dared risk the threat`
  - odensc 3y ago
    The article did say that: > The seeds had to go, too. While poppy seeds might be legal, it is never legal to plant them. Not for any reason.
- mrelectric 3y ago
  Yeah, but you won't find opium poppies seeds anywhere online anymore, even if you just want them for decoration/tea.
  - eindiran 3y ago
    This is completely untrue. Every major garden supplier will sell them, and there are a number of places where you can find cultivars bred for their alkaloid content. The latter type is perhaps grey-area legal, but definitely still available on the internet.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - jdefr89 3y ago
    Google poppy seed tea. You will find plenty of poppy seed vendors lols
celtoid 3y ago
Great book as referenced in link. "Opium For The Masses" by Jim Hogshire, 1994 [0] [0] https://ia800802.us.archive.org/9/items/armchaircommando/OpiumForTheMasses-JimHogshire.pdf https://ia800802.us.archive.org/9/items/armchaircommando/Opi...
zanethomas 3y ago
strange that a constitutional amendment was required to ban alcohol, but none was required for other drugs
- beerpls 3y ago
  Alcohol was used by more people. The governmental play that had to be carried out to make the people tolerate the tyranny was minimal. Remember it’s not about what a piece of paper says the rules are - it’s what you can get away with in power.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  We used to be a republic, now we are a democracy.
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  It wouldn’t require an amendment today. Sadly the courts have supported a huge increase in the federal government’s police power over the years.
  - pc86 3y ago
    It didn't require an amendment in the past either.
    - mcbits 3y ago
      The Supreme Court could have chosen not to interpret the Commerce Clause so broadly to say that not engaging in interstate commerce affects interstate commerce and therefore counts as interstate commerce (IIRC that started with wheat, not drugs), in which case most federal drug laws would not apply unless the activity actually involved interstate commerce. Then an amendment would be needed.
      - pc86 3y ago
        Yes, had things been different they would have been different. I'm not sure what the point of that statement is, honestly.
tssva 3y ago
This is not an accurate story. Monticello had for a while been concerned about the legality of growing the plant and selling the seeds. They first contacted the Department of Agriculture and the Virginia Attorney General regarding this question. They didn't receive clear guidance, so they then reached out to the DEA regarding the legality. The DEA told them it was illegal but also released a public statement that no enforcement action would take place if they grew them solely for decorative purposes on the estate. Monticello made the decision to go ahead and remove the plants anyways on their own.
- BowBun 3y ago
  Sharing a source linked below that confirms this comment and seems to disprove the article posted - https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/ROA-Times/issues/1991/rt9104/910419/04190796.htm https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/ROA-Times/issues/1991/rt9...
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  You mean some raving diatribe on the Internet is actually total bullshit? Shocking! In all seriousness, thanks very much for your post, it's the kind of informative content that I really appreciate about HN. At the same time, this blog post gets to everything I hate about the Internet and online discourse these days: nobody even attempts to argue in good faith anymore. US drug policy over the past century is rife with plenty enough problems that you don't need to blatantly make shit up to get your point across, as this author did.
- celtoid 3y ago
  I was living in Charlottesville at the time and I remember this. Charlottesville had just made national news because of a huge drug bust at UVa (Operation Equinox). Monticello was covering its bases.
- BeetleB 3y ago
  Ah, Alternet. I didn't realize they still existed. When I was a news junkie it was one of my sources of information - until I started digging deep and learned how inaccurate it often was.
- 3y ago
ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
When I lived in Morocco, the field behind our house was an opium field. It wasn't just orange poppies. They were a bunch of colors. Looked great. My mother grew them in our back yard. My brother and I used to chase each other with dried seed pods. They rattled, and, when you smacked someone, the seeds would explode, getting into everything.
jk_i_am_a_robot 3y ago
"Opium" poppies are still grown at George Washington's estate, Mt. Vernon (https://www.mountvernon.org/the-estate-gardens/gardens-landscapes/plant-finder/item/breadseed-poppy/ https://www.mountvernon.org/the-estate-gardens/gardens-lands...). Since it's also in Virginia I assume it's governed by the same state and federal laws as Monticello.
JoeAltmaier 3y ago
And the poppy is the California state flower! Can't use it; can't plant it; and in California you can't eradicate it! A lovely world we're in.
- rocket_surgeron 3y ago
  The state flower of California is the California Poppy Eschscholzia californica. The poppy that produces opium is the Breadseed Poppy Papaver somniferum. You can buy ten thousand California Poppy seeds at any Home Depot for $3.97. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stover-California-Poppy-Seed-79010-6/100137667 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stover-California-Poppy-Seed-790...
  - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
    All poppies produce opium, but of course in different concentrations. I guess there's a critical opium threshold the law applies? Or does it just name the forbidden ones?
    - rocket_surgeron 3y ago
      It is a common misconception that all poppies produce opium. They do not. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of poppy varieties that produce no morphinan alkaloids. Morphinan alkaloids become "opium". https://www.poison.org/articles/what-to-know-california-poppy-products-211 https://www.poison.org/articles/what-to-know-california-popp... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10017456/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10017456/

141 points by pera 3y ago

Now do eggplants.

Up in a Puff of Smoke! >Employees even gathered the store's souvenir T-shirts with silkscreened photos of Monticello poppies on the chest -- and burned them.

zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago

Growing poppies isn't illegal

BowBun 3y ago
No one said that, read the article. > Jefferson had planted opium poppies in his medicinal garden, and opium poppies are now deemed illegal Growing with the intent to produce opium is illegal. By continuing his tradition in the museum, it was deemed a continuation of production for drugs and so probably came under scrutiny. I'm sure they could regrow a garden for decorative purposes if they actually did that and were clear about it.
- pera 3y ago
  I really don't know anything about this topic but according to the DEA it is "technically" illegal: https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/ROA-Times/issues/1991/rt9104/910419/04190796.htm https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/ROA-Times/issues/1991/rt9...
  - BowBun 3y ago
    That's a cool source that contradicts the article posted originally. In yours they say they won't prosecute, but in the article it claims they were low-key threatened into getting rid of the garden. Odd.
    - pera 3y ago
      Yeah found it after posting the article, although I wouldn't say it contradicts the story (except for the title), this is my interpretation: random DEA agent sees something [1] that looks probably illegal during a visit and notifies Monticello, Monticello then attempts to confirm this with DEA through more official channels, who then clarifies that it is technically illegal but they wont persecute, even then Monticello decides to remove the plants and seeds [2]. 1- `A DEA man noticed the store was selling packets of "Thomas Jefferson's Monticello Poppies."` 2- `Nobody told them to do this, but, under the circumstances, no one dared risk the threat`
- odensc 3y ago
  The article did say that: > The seeds had to go, too. While poppy seeds might be legal, it is never legal to plant them. Not for any reason.
mrelectric 3y ago
Yeah, but you won't find opium poppies seeds anywhere online anymore, even if you just want them for decoration/tea.
- eindiran 3y ago
  This is completely untrue. Every major garden supplier will sell them, and there are a number of places where you can find cultivars bred for their alkaloid content. The latter type is perhaps grey-area legal, but definitely still available on the internet.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jdefr89 3y ago
  Google poppy seed tea. You will find plenty of poppy seed vendors lols

celtoid 3y ago

Great book as referenced in link. "Opium For The Masses" by Jim Hogshire, 1994 [0] [0] https://ia800802.us.archive.org/9/items/armchaircommando/OpiumForTheMasses-JimHogshire.pdf https://ia800802.us.archive.org/9/items/armchaircommando/Opi...

zanethomas 3y ago

strange that a constitutional amendment was required to ban alcohol, but none was required for other drugs

beerpls 3y ago
Alcohol was used by more people. The governmental play that had to be carried out to make the people tolerate the tyranny was minimal. Remember it’s not about what a piece of paper says the rules are - it’s what you can get away with in power.
willcipriano 3y ago
We used to be a republic, now we are a democracy.
zeroonetwothree 3y ago
It wouldn’t require an amendment today. Sadly the courts have supported a huge increase in the federal government’s police power over the years.
- pc86 3y ago
  It didn't require an amendment in the past either.
  - mcbits 3y ago
    The Supreme Court could have chosen not to interpret the Commerce Clause so broadly to say that not engaging in interstate commerce affects interstate commerce and therefore counts as interstate commerce (IIRC that started with wheat, not drugs), in which case most federal drug laws would not apply unless the activity actually involved interstate commerce. Then an amendment would be needed.
    - pc86 3y ago
      Yes, had things been different they would have been different. I'm not sure what the point of that statement is, honestly.

tssva 3y ago

This is not an accurate story. Monticello had for a while been concerned about the legality of growing the plant and selling the seeds. They first contacted the Department of Agriculture and the Virginia Attorney General regarding this question. They didn't receive clear guidance, so they then reached out to the DEA regarding the legality. The DEA told them it was illegal but also released a public statement that no enforcement action would take place if they grew them solely for decorative purposes on the estate. Monticello made the decision to go ahead and remove the plants anyways on their own.

BowBun 3y ago
Sharing a source linked below that confirms this comment and seems to disprove the article posted - https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/ROA-Times/issues/1991/rt9104/910419/04190796.htm https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/ROA-Times/issues/1991/rt9...
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
You mean some raving diatribe on the Internet is actually total bullshit? Shocking! In all seriousness, thanks very much for your post, it's the kind of informative content that I really appreciate about HN. At the same time, this blog post gets to everything I hate about the Internet and online discourse these days: nobody even attempts to argue in good faith anymore. US drug policy over the past century is rife with plenty enough problems that you don't need to blatantly make shit up to get your point across, as this author did.
celtoid 3y ago
I was living in Charlottesville at the time and I remember this. Charlottesville had just made national news because of a huge drug bust at UVa (Operation Equinox). Monticello was covering its bases.
BeetleB 3y ago
Ah, Alternet. I didn't realize they still existed. When I was a news junkie it was one of my sources of information - until I started digging deep and learned how inaccurate it often was.
3y ago

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago

When I lived in Morocco, the field behind our house was an opium field. It wasn't just orange poppies. They were a bunch of colors. Looked great. My mother grew them in our back yard. My brother and I used to chase each other with dried seed pods. They rattled, and, when you smacked someone, the seeds would explode, getting into everything.

jk_i_am_a_robot 3y ago

"Opium" poppies are still grown at George Washington's estate, Mt. Vernon (https://www.mountvernon.org/the-estate-gardens/gardens-landscapes/plant-finder/item/breadseed-poppy/ https://www.mountvernon.org/the-estate-gardens/gardens-lands...). Since it's also in Virginia I assume it's governed by the same state and federal laws as Monticello.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago

And the poppy is the California state flower! Can't use it; can't plant it; and in California you can't eradicate it! A lovely world we're in.

rocket_surgeron 3y ago
The state flower of California is the California Poppy Eschscholzia californica. The poppy that produces opium is the Breadseed Poppy Papaver somniferum. You can buy ten thousand California Poppy seeds at any Home Depot for $3.97. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stover-California-Poppy-Seed-79010-6/100137667 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stover-California-Poppy-Seed-790...
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  All poppies produce opium, but of course in different concentrations. I guess there's a critical opium threshold the law applies? Or does it just name the forbidden ones?
  - rocket_surgeron 3y ago
    It is a common misconception that all poppies produce opium. They do not. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of poppy varieties that produce no morphinan alkaloids. Morphinan alkaloids become "opium". https://www.poison.org/articles/what-to-know-california-poppy-products-211 https://www.poison.org/articles/what-to-know-california-popp... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10017456/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10017456/