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240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO
- dtx1 3y agoIt seems Gallium Nitride are quite the revolution in power density for charging equipment
- LazyMans 3y agoI now own two Anker GaN chargers. They're awesome. I carry this single little 70 watt brick, 1x usb-a 2x usb-c ports. Charges everything. Even my macbook pro, albeit at a slower rate.
- malfist 3y agoGaN doesn't actually change the capabilities, just the size required.
- dtx1 3y agoWhich is power density
- zamadatix 3y agoIt's been quite nice to have a 150 W charger in such a small form factor. Particularly since these charges tend to come with multiple ports in case you want to go from "I'm just charging my MacBook" to "I want to plug a couple of things in overnight at the hotel but don't want to pack a bunch of chargers". Typically that's some combination of my watch, airpods, phone, and laptop. My current charger of choice is the Anker 747 150 W, 3 usb c (equal capabilities per port of 100 W) and 1 USB A (24 watts) but there have been a lot of other models released since then. Somewhere around ~240 W might be when I look at options again, right now my MacBook won't charge at full speed due to the 100 W limit on the 747.
- rektide 3y agoAbsolutely. I think it's also super important that there is now a market of competing products too. Until recently, devices were sort of stuck using whatever the manufacturer provided. Almost no one shopped for power density. Now we have an interoperable standard & different companies can compete to be better. USB-PD has been pretty epic so far, IMO.
- sp332 3y agoGreat! I'm going to need something like fpx or fabpide2 with a Lenovo connector and at least 135 watts so I can avoid buying more Lenovo charging bricks for the couch, bedroom, second desk, travelling...
- flerchin 3y agoWaste heat seems like it would be a thing? Even at 95% efficiency (which is unrealistic), we're looking at a 12W heater.
- karamanolev 3y ago240W chargers were a thing even before that, for gaming laptops. The only difference here is that it goes through USB-C PD, instead of a large-ish barrel jack, right? 95% efficiency probably refers to the adapter itself, where it shouldn't matter that much. Additionally, GaN is now a thing, so efficiency should be better than what it was 10 years ago.
- Aromasin 3y agoIt says in the article: >> The company says it uses Weltrend WT6676F, ON Semi NCP1622, and JoulWatt JW1556 controllers, as well as GaN switching parts from both GaN Systems and Navitas “peaking at an amazing 93% efficiency” for this 180W adapter. Both those parts and Chicony’s assistance as a power supply manufacturer are obviously there for other companies to use as well. So likely even less efficiency for the higher rating. I'm very interested to see how they're venting this heat passively.
- thx-2718 3y agoShould pipe it off to be a coffee cup heater.
- sottol 3y agoApple's M1 in the MB Air is 10W TDP afaik. The PSU would be more constrained space-wise but it'd probably get somewhere about as hot as the passive cooled MBA at full load.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y agoIs 12W meaningful heat? I mean, I have laptops that run 10-15W and it doesn't seem like much. I guess it feels hotter because it's a much smaller surface area, but not that much (laptop heat output is mostly over the CPU/mainboard anyways)
- CoastalCoder 3y agoIs it possible for a (laptop + USB-C PD power charger) to support multiple charging rates? My Lenovo Legion 5 has a 300W charger. Caveats: (a) I'm not sure if that's input power or output power; and (b) it's not a USB-C PD connector , but my question isn't specific to this laptop. Airplane A/C power outlets aren't willing to deliver that much power. And even if I was willing to slow-charge the laptop on an airplane or with my car, the laptop isn't willing to cap the charge rate, so it's simply not an option. So I'm wishing for some scheme that lets me slow-charge a laptop in those situations, even if it meant having two different A/C adapters.
- wtallis 3y agoYes, this is what USB-C PD is for. If you have a laptop capable of charging at 100+ W but you plug it in to a 45W charger, it will charge at 45W and maybe give you a notification about slow charging. (Sometimes you'll run into weird exceptions where either the charger or laptop doesn't support a particular voltage or has a lower current limit for some voltages so charging power can end up lower than you'd expect.)
- SilverBirch 3y agoMy Lenovo Thinkpad X1 has a specific setting that allows it to charge off a lower power that you can access through a setting in windows.
- Cthulhu_ 3y agoWouldn't airplane outlets just limit how much watts come out? I'm not an electrical engineer, I don't know much about these things, but I'd assume they have protection built-in to just cap out instead of blow a fuse if something draws too much power.
- idiocrat 3y agoThe trick with my Lenovo 300W notebook in the airplanes is as following. At first, with the adapter disconnected from the notebook, I charge the capacitors inside of the adapter by connecting and re-connecting repeatedly (1-2 seconds intervals). The first 5 times the breaker trips, but eventually the capacitors are charged, so no initial high current is drawn from the socket, and the breaker is happy. Only then I connect the notebook to the adapter. I never tried to draw too much power from the airplane socket by playing GPU/CPU intensive games. Wish you productive flights!
- fnord77 3y agowhy was 240W picked as the upper limit for PD? Why does there even need to be an upper limit?
- thulle 3y agoI'd assume it's not specified as a upper limit but that it's just the highest voltage/current-pair currently defined. On a more fundamental level, there's the physics of how much power you can pass through a cable/connector safely.
- droopyEyelids 3y agoThis made me curious if it would ever be possible to see some material more conductive than copper in consumer cables. Doing a quick bit of research there isn’t really any other option. Silver has 7% less resistivity than copper, but it tarnishes. Aside from that, humanity hasnt discovered other options!
- TylerE 3y agoBecause you have to size the cables based on amperage. The highest voltage supported by USB-PD is 20V. At 20V to deliver 240W you need 12 amps. That's already a fairly high number. At 300W you'd need 15 amps. So unless you want to drag around an NEC type cable as thick as one of your fingers, you need to set a limit. Edit: Fixed math. I haven't had caffeine yet.
- kube-system 3y agoThat was my first question -- is this still going to be at 20V? The kind of current that would draw is crazy for those tiny pins. Looks like the spec goes up to 48v now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#USB_Power_Delivery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#USB_Power_Deliver...
- parineum 3y agoIt's 48V.
- Springtime 3y agoWill be interested to see if AllThingsOnePlace reviews it, as have been following their particularly in-depth power adapter reviews and their last review[1] of a Framework charger (a 60W model) showed it performed well both in efficiency and other metrics though not the highest performer or value in its wattage range. Wouldn't ordinarily mention a Youtube channel on HN but felt their detailed testing, comparisons and teardowns would probably be of interest for the topic. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyG8QEe6GIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyG8QEe6GIk
- thekombustor 3y agoThese are exactly the kinds of channels we need more of on YT, I'm glad someone else has also found his channel. I eagerly await more reviews of other USB-C PD chargers, e.g the 65W Lenovo ones you can get for pennies on ebay.
- throwoutway 3y agoDoes anyone review USB-C outlets? I want a high watt one, but I'm worried about whether they are truly UL listed and won't burn my place down
- soulbadguy 3y agoSeconds the recommendation of AllThingsOnePlace as great place to learn about usb psu in general. But watching his video I can't help but wonder with all the talk about the important of energy at the national level, why this kind of analysis is not done by one of gov. Agencies ...
- gumby 3y ago> I can't help but wonder with all the talk about the important of energy at the national level, why this kind of analysis is not done by one of gov. Agencies ... This kind of thing used to be more common in the US but in the 80s various trends, from ideological privatization to increased tolerance for "gaming the system" and an increase in regulatory capture, squeezed this kind of thing out. Not completely (car models get crash testing, for instance) but, for example, FDA no longer does its own prospective research, but responds to applications from the private sector (and when it has questions, has the requestor do the research).
- hfkwer 3y agoI'm glad we're finding faster and faster way to consume the earth's resources.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- _trampeltier 3y agoOn one side, I like the idea (and I use it a lot) with USB C to power a notebook. I have a small 65W travel adapter and I can charge my beefy HP Z-Book (it even works with a 45W adapter) or my smaller Fujitsu U939. But both notebooks still have real charging ports too and normaly I use those. A real charging port are much less fragile when moving the notebook while plugged in. USB C is very fragile and it is an very, very expensive port just to load a notebook. When you use it as docking station, then, yes it makes sense, but just for charging everyday, I still much prefer a normal charging plug.
- lxgr 3y ago> it is an very, very expensive port Expensive in terms of cables or connectors? In both cases, I've been paying considerably less for USB-C (cables and chargers combined) than for proprietary replacement chargers. > it even works with a 45W adapter My favorite thing about USB-C charging is that (at least Macbooks) it works even with lowly 5W chargers in a pinch! Sure, it takes more to fully charge a laptop that way – but I can sustain my Macbook Pro's charge with an 18W phone charger on an airplane no problem.
- Reason077 3y ago> ”USB C is very fragile” Is it? I’ve been using USB-C Macs since 2017 and I’ve never had any broken ports, despite some significant abuses (cable trips, grime in the port, etc). A few worn out cables, and failed chargers, maybe… but no problems on the laptop itself.
- Sakos 3y agoAccording to my technician friends, yes. Apparently on most devices, USB-C ports are much less robustly attached than USB-A and are more prone to failure. Just because it's fine on Macs doesn't mean it's fine everywhere else.
- eternityforest 3y agoI haven't seen a failed port yet. I see loads of failed MicroUSB though.
- kitsunesoba 3y agoI wonder if we'll start seeing devices other than laptops that currently use barrel jacks for power shift to USB-C. 240W covers the vast majority of things even an enthusiast might have on their desk. It'd be nice if they did, if only because there's a single agreed upon way to deliver power with USB-PD, and USB-PD bricks hash out the details with the connected device to deliver appropriate power. It's a considerably nicer experience than with barrel jacks, with the various different sizes and pole configurations they can come in and their "dumb" nature all of which makes it easy to plug in a brick that physically fits but fries your device. It'd also enable better modularity, making it easier to replace the bargain bin bricks that come with some devices with something higher quality.
- jaywalk 3y agoUSB-PD requires extra circuitry that barrel jacks don't. I doubt we'll see the end of barrel jacks.
- xxpor 3y agoOTOH, a lot of things have stopped including transformers, so the tradeoff might be worth it for the manufacturers.
- elcritch 3y agoExactly, the dc-dc bricks should more than offset the USB C costs.
- mtoner23 3y agomaybe for the truly cheapest products, but USB-c PD chipset can be pretty cheap these days.
- notatoad 3y agothere's enough cheap parts floating around now that offer standalone conversion from USB-PD to raw DC voltage. if customers are preferring USB connections, OEMs will find a way to implement it. something like this is no more difficult to implement than a barrel plug https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005315614647.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005315614647.html
- knodi123 3y agoIt's super frustrating that if I want a 2nd charger for my macbook pro, I have to either buy an overpriced apple adapter, or.... what? I haven't seen any USB-C compatible 140W chargers that are significantly cheaper than apple's.... but I can't charge my laptop with less. If I plug in my 80w charger, my laptop just goes "bong bong bong" as it turns charging on and off endlessly.
- diffeomorphism 3y agoAnker 717 is much smaller and is cheaper, though not by much. Considering it just seems strictly better, it doesn't need to be.
- DowsingSpoon 3y agoThis is a very weird way of saying the that Apple charger is priced competitively and isn’t over priced at all.
- Analemma_ 3y agoHow much is a 140W charger supposed to cost? That's a nontrivial amount of power for something which needs to support multiple voltages: there needs to be thermal management and safety circuitry to match; it's not "just a bigger 5W charger". As another commenter mentioned, Anker's 140W charger is not much cheaper than Apple's.
- blacksmith_tb 3y agoThe Hdplex 250W [1] is pretty small, seems like it proves it's possible at least. 1: https://hdplex.com/hdplex-fanless-250w-gan-aio-atx-psu.html https://hdplex.com/hdplex-fanless-250w-gan-aio-atx-psu.html
- Kirby64 3y agoATX power supplies are a much easier task. Fixed voltages for everything. A USB-PD charger capable of 240W is essentially a variable power supply from 5 to 48V. Much more difficult in execution.
- crote 3y agoRather the opposite, actually. ATX power supplies have to supply -12V, -5V, 3.3V, 5V and 12V at the same time. A USB-PD charger only has to supply a single voltage. And pretty much all power supplies are switched-mode power supplies anyways, whose controller usually requires you to explicitly define the output voltage using feedback components. Changing that to a variable power supply like USB PD doesn't really require much engineering.
- ajmurmann 3y agoI have this dream where Apple releases the most amazing self-driving, electric vehicle and it charges via Lightning cable.
- gumby 3y agoThis really makes me think about use cases. Personally I want my laptop to be as light and portable as possible; some of these bricks are likely heavier than my whole laptop! When I need crunch I do it on a desktop or in the cloud (or these days "...and in the cloud"). So I edit code locally but when I press c-X c, g++ runs on some other machine. I don't really understand why anyone would lug around an enormous and expensive boat anchor, but I'm sure they aren't idiots: they must get value from doing so, even if I can't imageine what it would be. One thing I love about capitalism is that it's a huge parallel processing system for satisfying these different needs. If I were the central planning czar, the folks who needed the big portables would be SOL.
- NBJack 3y agoThere is certainly a trend in processors as well as GPUs to push the hardware further by pumping more power into it. This (almost) always plays into the various workstation-grade laptops out there, which I suspect many won't unlock their full potential without a beefy power source. Beyond gaming, the most interesting use cases I have seen and heard are CAD work/displays of highly complex models, creating heavy duty multimedia presentations, game development, and just about anyone in a country that either needs to do a lot of travel or does not have ready access to a high bandwidth connection. I don't know how prevalent those cases are, but they did surprise me a little.
- gumby 3y agoThe CAD case was my default guess, though I've seen from my ME colleagues that when you're designing something very complex you absolutely need the oomph of a real workstation class machine. I guess there could be a large "middle" of quite complex but not extremely so. But how many people need that? I was shocked to see another colleague doing CFD on his ipad.