8 ms·

This is exactly the reason I would have never considered to build any apps. I have had couple of ideas but the risk is to big that a faceless corporation is goi

This is exactly the reason I would have never considered to build any apps. I have had couple of ideas but the risk is to big that a faceless corporation is going cancel your business without any reason and visibility.

meghan_rain 3y ago
Not sure why this is getting downvoted. It's an existential risk.
- kordlessagain 3y ago
  An existential risk is typically considered any risk that has the potential to eliminate all of humanity or, at the very least, kill large swaths of the global population. Being controlled by software restricts choice, while being wiped out by software eliminates choice altogether.
  - bdavbdav 3y ago
    I suspect you may be being a little too literal here. It is an existential risk to the software development house.
    - kordlessagain 3y ago
      I agree and nothing I wrote conflicts with that assertion. The point is that it depends on the individual's perspective and the complexity of the issue at hand. Restricting choice is often an advantage because it saves us time in exchange for the risk of being (company, individual or humanity) wiped out by an exception to the rule.
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    Hmm typically I've heard the phrase existential risk alongside a qualifying / local scope phrase. So something may be an existential risk to this company or this endeavour. Only a small fraction of usage of existential risk are globally scoped to humanity.
  - lolpython 3y ago
    It’s an existential risk to a business’s survival
- jonas21 3y ago
  I didn't downvote, but I assume people are because everything you can possibly do in life comes with some risk -- you need to evaluate the risk versus the benefit to decide whether to do something. Not even considering developing an app because of the risk of your app being banned seems like a fairly extreme overreaction. It's kind of like saying, "I've never considered getting a job because the risk is too big that a faceless corporation is going lay you off without any reason and visibility."
  - mejutoco 3y ago
    The comparison would be IMO more accurate if there were only 2 employers in the world.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - sieabahlpark 3y ago
      [dead]
    - Jalad 3y ago
      That still doesn't change the underlying mechanics of the analogy though. It doesn't matter how many employers there are, if the worst case scenario is that you end up where you are now (jobless / no app) The analogy would be more accurate if you could end up in a worse off position by taking the job / making the app, say through lost development time with no payoff
      - mejutoco 3y ago
        In an scenario with 2 employers, even ignoring market dynamics of an oligopoly/monopoly, once you are rejected by them you have nothing to lose. The risk of your app being banned when there is only 2 marketplaces is way way higher than the risk of being laid off when there are many more companies. IMO OPs argument breaks when they equate a bit of risk to a lot of risk, as if any risk amount were the same as any other.
- breakingrules 3y ago
  [dead]
hospitalJail 3y ago
Eh, you can still put them on an external website. This really only applies to iOS.
- datadeft 3y ago
  Do you think that you can easily reach the same userbase with a 3rd party installation process as the official app store one?
  - salawat 3y ago
    Yes. How do you think we did it in the bad ole days? Don't fall for the propensity of Big Tech to scare you away from general purpose computing. If you're capable of writing, testing, and publishing an app in the first place, you have an obligation to educate the public about just what the nature of the sacrifices are that are being made by accepting a "walled garden" status quo for computing. If you're only in it for the money, that may not matter to you I suppose. If you're dedicated to trying to bring the superpower that is general purpose computing to the public however, it's one of those bits of suffering you have to navigate for their best interest.
    - fluoridation 3y ago
      If you have to educate each potential user before you can turn it into an actual user, then necessarily your userbase is going to be smaller than if you didn't require that education step.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        Right, but is that actually important? It might be, depending on what your goals are, but for a lot of developers who just want to make a good living off of their work (as opposed to becoming a millionaire), it's not really that important.
    - datadeft 3y ago
      I am not talking about some imaginary good old days vs now but using a 3rd party install process vs the official one in the context of installing Android applications. I think you would reach a fraction of the userbase with a 3rd party process due to several factors.
the_pwner224 3y ago
Google can also take your website out of their search results, or derank you a lot. That would effectively be a death penalty for many online businesses.
- ravenstine 3y ago
  Fair point, though The Google's search matters less and less as the days go by. But the difference with websites is that there's always an alternative. If The Google decides your site is wrongthink or their superior AI intelligence flags your site for infringing on your own copyright, there are countless other ways to make your site seen elsewhere. Let's face it, nobody's going to sideload your mobile app without installing it through an app store unless your app is in the position to say F-U to The Google like Tik Tok, Twitter, Instagram, and so on. People will visit a website that's been posted on social media or linked on some blog, but they won't download an APK.
  - Liquix 3y ago
    >The Google's search matters less and less as the days go by The HN community is well aware that Google search result quality has fallen off a cliff and DDG's results keep getting better. But the vast majority of casual internet users still do (perhaps always will) use the former. The amount of people downloading APKs outside of the play store is as low as the amount of people looking up your business through non-Google search engines.
    - ravenstine 3y ago
      > The amount of people downloading APKs outside of the play store is as low as the amount of people looking up your business through non-Google search engines. Outside of software developers, that's pretty doubtful. Judging by how many non-technical people I've spotted using DDG, I'd bet good money that there are more of them than those who would be willing to install a mobile app outside an app store. Even software developers are paranoid about doing that. Also, the point is that at least your site can be seen even if it doesn't appear on a search engine. A business can post hyperlinks on Instagram, Reddit, Tik Tok, blogs, physical ads, and so forth. There's an option with websites. With apps, there's really no meaningful alternative unless you're a big player, and even the big players have largely bent over for Apple and The Google and their respective app stores. Sorry, the incredibly vast majority of people aren't going to explicitly turn on the Android setting to allow installing apps outside the Play Store and then install an APK off some website, and for iOS this isn't even as practical.
ravenstine 3y ago
Same. I would totally consider dropping web development and developing apps if Apple and The Google behaved more reasonably towards developers. I've heard enough stories, including those from people I know IRL, to stay the hell away from mobile development as a form of self-employment income.
JohnFen 3y ago
I'm mostly there. I've developed a few apps, but none that I charged for. I wouldn't be willing to have anything of importance be at the mercy of any app store.

meghan_rain 3y ago

Not sure why this is getting downvoted. It's an existential risk.

kordlessagain 3y ago
An existential risk is typically considered any risk that has the potential to eliminate all of humanity or, at the very least, kill large swaths of the global population. Being controlled by software restricts choice, while being wiped out by software eliminates choice altogether.
- bdavbdav 3y ago
  I suspect you may be being a little too literal here. It is an existential risk to the software development house.
  - kordlessagain 3y ago
    I agree and nothing I wrote conflicts with that assertion. The point is that it depends on the individual's perspective and the complexity of the issue at hand. Restricting choice is often an advantage because it saves us time in exchange for the risk of being (company, individual or humanity) wiped out by an exception to the rule.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  Hmm typically I've heard the phrase existential risk alongside a qualifying / local scope phrase. So something may be an existential risk to this company or this endeavour. Only a small fraction of usage of existential risk are globally scoped to humanity.
- lolpython 3y ago
  It’s an existential risk to a business’s survival
jonas21 3y ago
I didn't downvote, but I assume people are because everything you can possibly do in life comes with some risk -- you need to evaluate the risk versus the benefit to decide whether to do something. Not even considering developing an app because of the risk of your app being banned seems like a fairly extreme overreaction. It's kind of like saying, "I've never considered getting a job because the risk is too big that a faceless corporation is going lay you off without any reason and visibility."
- mejutoco 3y ago
  The comparison would be IMO more accurate if there were only 2 employers in the world.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - sieabahlpark 3y ago
    [dead]
  - Jalad 3y ago
    That still doesn't change the underlying mechanics of the analogy though. It doesn't matter how many employers there are, if the worst case scenario is that you end up where you are now (jobless / no app) The analogy would be more accurate if you could end up in a worse off position by taking the job / making the app, say through lost development time with no payoff
    - mejutoco 3y ago
      In an scenario with 2 employers, even ignoring market dynamics of an oligopoly/monopoly, once you are rejected by them you have nothing to lose. The risk of your app being banned when there is only 2 marketplaces is way way higher than the risk of being laid off when there are many more companies. IMO OPs argument breaks when they equate a bit of risk to a lot of risk, as if any risk amount were the same as any other.
breakingrules 3y ago
[dead]

hospitalJail 3y ago

Eh, you can still put them on an external website. This really only applies to iOS.

datadeft 3y ago
Do you think that you can easily reach the same userbase with a 3rd party installation process as the official app store one?
- salawat 3y ago
  Yes. How do you think we did it in the bad ole days? Don't fall for the propensity of Big Tech to scare you away from general purpose computing. If you're capable of writing, testing, and publishing an app in the first place, you have an obligation to educate the public about just what the nature of the sacrifices are that are being made by accepting a "walled garden" status quo for computing. If you're only in it for the money, that may not matter to you I suppose. If you're dedicated to trying to bring the superpower that is general purpose computing to the public however, it's one of those bits of suffering you have to navigate for their best interest.
  - fluoridation 3y ago
    If you have to educate each potential user before you can turn it into an actual user, then necessarily your userbase is going to be smaller than if you didn't require that education step.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      Right, but is that actually important? It might be, depending on what your goals are, but for a lot of developers who just want to make a good living off of their work (as opposed to becoming a millionaire), it's not really that important.
  - datadeft 3y ago
    I am not talking about some imaginary good old days vs now but using a 3rd party install process vs the official one in the context of installing Android applications. I think you would reach a fraction of the userbase with a 3rd party process due to several factors.

the_pwner224 3y ago

Google can also take your website out of their search results, or derank you a lot. That would effectively be a death penalty for many online businesses.

ravenstine 3y ago
Fair point, though The Google's search matters less and less as the days go by. But the difference with websites is that there's always an alternative. If The Google decides your site is wrongthink or their superior AI intelligence flags your site for infringing on your own copyright, there are countless other ways to make your site seen elsewhere. Let's face it, nobody's going to sideload your mobile app without installing it through an app store unless your app is in the position to say F-U to The Google like Tik Tok, Twitter, Instagram, and so on. People will visit a website that's been posted on social media or linked on some blog, but they won't download an APK.
- Liquix 3y ago
  >The Google's search matters less and less as the days go by The HN community is well aware that Google search result quality has fallen off a cliff and DDG's results keep getting better. But the vast majority of casual internet users still do (perhaps always will) use the former. The amount of people downloading APKs outside of the play store is as low as the amount of people looking up your business through non-Google search engines.
  - ravenstine 3y ago
    > The amount of people downloading APKs outside of the play store is as low as the amount of people looking up your business through non-Google search engines. Outside of software developers, that's pretty doubtful. Judging by how many non-technical people I've spotted using DDG, I'd bet good money that there are more of them than those who would be willing to install a mobile app outside an app store. Even software developers are paranoid about doing that. Also, the point is that at least your site can be seen even if it doesn't appear on a search engine. A business can post hyperlinks on Instagram, Reddit, Tik Tok, blogs, physical ads, and so forth. There's an option with websites. With apps, there's really no meaningful alternative unless you're a big player, and even the big players have largely bent over for Apple and The Google and their respective app stores. Sorry, the incredibly vast majority of people aren't going to explicitly turn on the Android setting to allow installing apps outside the Play Store and then install an APK off some website, and for iOS this isn't even as practical.

ravenstine 3y ago

Same. I would totally consider dropping web development and developing apps if Apple and The Google behaved more reasonably towards developers. I've heard enough stories, including those from people I know IRL, to stay the hell away from mobile development as a form of self-employment income.

JohnFen 3y ago

I'm mostly there. I've developed a few apps, but none that I charged for. I wouldn't be willing to have anything of importance be at the mercy of any app store.