16 ms·

Flipper Zero Self Destructs an Electricity Smart Meter

181 points by kungfudoi 3y ago

Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago
Not having much in the way of specifics about how this wireless vulnerability was found and exploited, this is really scary. It's one thing using Flipper Zero to pop the charging port on Tesla's [1], but this is just plain dangerous! [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWEUKeF5IPs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWEUKeF5IPs
- louky 3y ago
  AC units also typically really hate being flipped on and off by having the power cycled like that. >Eventually switching the meter on and off while under a heavy load
  - jahewson 3y ago
    Yes indeed. This is how you destroy your compressor motor.
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  In other news: flipping a power switch using Finger-O-Matic Power Flipper™ would make the magic smoke go out, too.
  - Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago
    Yes, but unless you typically trespass on a neighboring property you won't get access to somebody's meter. With this you could potentially cause damage by standing outside the property line.
    - justsomehnguy 3y ago
      You could do that with a long pole, so what?
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    This is a straw man. Light switches don't have code running that can detect and ignore spam inputs.
    - justsomehnguy 3y ago
      This is a straw man. It wasn't Flipper who flipped the switch, it was the guy who operated Flipper
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    The radio isn't wired directly into the power supply. There's software in charge, and it would be bad for a software-controlled power button to do the same thing.
diftraku 3y ago
> In the video it appears that Peter was using the Flipper Zero to wireless turn the power meter on and off, which also controlled the power to a large AC unit. Eventually switching the meter on and off while under a heavy load resulted in the meter self destructing and releasing the magic smoke. Calling out Flipper Zero for someone (ab)using the meter's remote control features cuts me the wrong way: you could've done the same with any other SDR, not just the Flipper Zero. It's not even a surprise this happened, the cut-off is not meant to be operated constantly to cut heavy loads. Similarly you should not use a breaker to turn off heavy (or any, in that matter) loads as you're needlessly wearing down the protective device, instead of a separate cut-off switch that's designed to be replaceable. Especially since it can be positioned downstream from the protective device. It all boils down to which part of the circuit you can easily repair in case of a fault, in this case the meter is by far the least accessible.
- wilg 3y ago
  I got the vibe they were treating it as a cool hacker tool not calling out the Flipper Zero. But I don't know what any of this is really. I'm just some guy!
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rocqua 3y ago
  > you could've done the same with any other SDR, not just the Flipper Zero. The specialness of the flipper zero is not that it can do more than any other SDR. The specialness is how easy it is to use. The question is what you can do in that 'easy mode'. That, in the easy mode, you can do this kind of realistic and meaningful damage is noteworthy. Because this potential is brought to the masses. It probably won't be the start of widespread SDR-based cyber-crime, but that brings it one step closer. That is why I consider this noteworthy news about the flipper zero specifically.
  - pftburger 3y ago
    That said, it’s also important to demand device makers build better protections into their software (like rate limiting) in the same way they do for the hardware. Otherwise it leaves the door open for legislature trying to ban screwdrivers (tools)
SequoiaHope 3y ago
Interesting. I have heard about the Flipper Zero but I did not know which radio chip they were using before, the CC1101 [1]. I ran a failed startup and made a bunch of arduino based boards with TI CC1200 [2] chips. I failed spectacularly to deliver on my promises made during a frantic kickstarter run, delivering about 50% of the hardware before caving to extreme burn out. The issue is, I now have hundreds of boards with nice 64mhz Cortex M3 chips that run arduino code, and an attached CC1200 radio chip. They are pretty cute boards. But people already paid for them and I failed to deliver those to them, so I can't in good conscience sell them. Instead I have many boxes of these boards filling up space under my raised bed. I would love to donate them to some educational purpose, but I worry they are a bit of an odd board no one would have a big use for. I guess though if the flipper zero with a similar chip is useful, maybe these can be useful too. When they communicate over the normal protocol they can have up to 1km wireless range (high above ground, no obstructions). I do go to a hackerspace every week so I will have to bring some by and see what people say. But if anyone here has specific suggestions for places to donate them where they will actually get used, please share! [1] https://www.ti.com/product/CC1101 https://www.ti.com/product/CC1101 [2] https://www.ti.com/product/CC1200 https://www.ti.com/product/CC1200
- austhrow743 3y ago
  >But people already paid for them and I failed to deliver those to them, so I can't in good conscience sell them. Why couldn't you sell them and give the proceeds to the people who paid for them?
  - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
    See my other replies above, but I had to take on debt to even get the hardware made, which then required me to get a full time job to pay off the debt. I tried to continue running the business on weekends but after years of burnout, working 7 days a week was killing me. I simply exceeded my capacity to continue operating the business, and so was unable to try selling the boards to refund people. I elaborate on this in the other replies but basically I had pushed through burnout for years on end by that point, and eventually you just hit a wall. You get to a point where there’s nothing you can do but walk away. That was 5 years in with no hope of success. I felt awful for letting all those people down, but I simply couldn’t continue to operate the business in any capacity, and no one wants to buy a failed business with loads of debt that has been eclipsed by venture funded startups shipping successful products.
sschueller 3y ago
This has nothing to do with the flipper zero or any other device using the CC1101 chip. It is the responsibility of the manufacturer of such smart meters to make them safe and if they are incapable of preventing a sub $10 chip found in thousands of devices from causing catastrophic failure then who is guaranteeing me that the meter is actually counting correctly! This is a failure of regulators and manufacturer, the media will spin it and next thing you know flipper zeros will be banned and smart meters will be as shitty as this one.
- Daz1 3y ago
  Incredible mental gymnastics
  - atoav 3y ago
    If any sequence of (radio) button presses can lead to the violent destruction of your product, you are at fault. To rate limit switching would be a no brainer here.
    - stavros 3y ago
      How are you sure that it was the number of presses that caused it? It could have exploded on the first switching, because it's not designed to be switching off heavy loads.
      - gdprrrr 3y ago
        Then why does it switch heavy loads if it shouldn't do that?
        stavros 3y ago
        Because someone unauthorized used a device to force it to do that. These devices are not built to be operated by the general public. Anyone who operates these devices knows to reduce the load first. I don't see the sense in saying "these devices, built for a specific industry with specific, exacting specs, should instead have been built with different specs that were never meant to occur". Everywhere in industry we train operators to know how to operate machinery that can be made to break itself, because it's cheaper to train the operator than to make the machine unable to break itself.
aetherspawn 3y ago
The more media attention and crappy unauthenticated infrastructure broken, the better. Requiring proper security in public infra creates market requirement for companies to release better, more secure, products to the public infra market. Not just whatever open radio based MVP thing they can whip up. And that creates jobs for not just EE engineers, but as security requirements increase then it creates jobs for SW engineers also (and if the existing players are too slow, opens the market for agile startups that can do it better). What's more, it makes our infrastructure more resilient to random RF and electronic warfare.
- jojobas 3y ago
  Unfortunately even though the unprotected meter is at fault here, this is more likely to result in an SDR ban rather than getting all crappy meters fixed.
- nextlevelwizard 3y ago
  My bet is that they are leading with the Flipper Zero for a reason. This shit has been broken since the beginning and enacting laws to fix this shit will be slow and expensive and many companies will be lobbying against it. Much easier to outlaw the Flipper Zero - as if that was the problem.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 3y ago
    The author of the original video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF6o9Ec4k_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF6o9Ec4k_o) likely called it that because they're showing off what their new toy can do. The SDR-related blog is also unlikely to have an agenda that includes getting certain types of SDRs banned.
georgeoliver 3y ago
Not to read too much into a video like this, but their tone when they say "Flipper, what did you do...?" — and then a bunch *more* switching — is quite the study in humans and (ab)use/hacking of technology.
- wcoenen 3y ago
  It's not clear to me what happened after the meter started to smoke. Perhaps it started turning on and off by itself after that point?
- tonymillion 3y ago
  I came here to say exactly this … complete avoidance of responsibility on the author of the videos part. “Flipper what did you do?” Should have been “What did I make flipper do?” In addition the articles title “flipper causes meter to self destruct” should be titled “person using radio device to cause smart meter to rapidly turn on an off causes failure in meter components”. I’d probably phrase it more like “Idiot with ‘hacking tool’ rapidly switches electricity meter without understanding current inrush and failure states of high voltage high current system, luckily escapes death by explosion or causing a fire”
randunel 3y ago
The apartment buildings in my area all have wireless gas leak detectors, this video makes me want to take out my HackRF and start experimenting with mine. Flipper Zero isn't what's causing this, the bad "smart" devices are, and the culprits themselves, of course. Just because you can hack a system, doesn't make it legal. Know your local laws. Mine says "accessing any IT system without authorisation is punishable with imprisonment from 3m to 3y; accessing the aforementioned system with the purpose of obtaining data is punishable with imprisonment from 6m to 5y.", vague enough for all of these things.
- Demmme 3y ago
  Black hat vs white hat. As soon as I would discover I could do that, I would inform the company not some scritkiddies on the internet. This is just irresponsible
  - nextlevelwizard 3y ago
    How often have we seen good intentions be punished?
    - Demmme 3y ago
      More often than not. I don't buy this and will not act shitty just because
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    > This is just irresponsible And reporting to the vendor is suicidal. At least assuming the stories I hear about vulnerability disclosures are representative, which I think they are. In their place, if I were to inform the company, I'd do it anonymously. If it was an actually important issue - as this very much looks like - I'd consider informing the building manager, HOA, the gas installation company they use, and every local journalist, all together so they know about each other - and then CC that to the vendor.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 3y ago
philjohn 3y ago
Inductive load + relay = arcing and a bad time when disconnected.
ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
Everyone even marginally aware knows that modern society is held together by a thin layer of "security". The Flipper just makes what was available for a long time cheaper and more accessible.
knorker 3y ago
I don't think that's what "self" destructs means. You can't self destruct something else. You can only self destruct yourself.
- _fizz_buzz_ 3y ago
  It self destructs in the sense that no external force was applied to it.
  - dismalpedigree 3y ago
    Technically the radio waves provide force, even if it is infinitesimally small
    - hn92726819 3y ago
      The radio wave force isn't what's causing the destruction. It triggers the device's self-destruction. You wouldn't say a remote controlled robot that destroys itself on (wireless) command isn't a self-destructing device.
      - tantalor 3y ago
        That's not what's happening here. This device is not designed to "self destruct" with a specific command. It is following normal service commands. The correct analogy would be if you command a robot to move so it falls off a cliff, this is not a "self destruct" command.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        If you order a robot off a cliff, the proximate cause of the damage is the cliff. If you order a robot to turn on and off too fast, the proximate cause of the damage is the internal power circuitry. Which makes "self-destruct" pretty appropriate language.
- planb 3y ago
sureglymop 3y ago
Peter Fairlie's videos are amazing!
rcarmo 3y ago
Sadly, this will provide a lot of ammunition to those wanting to restrict this kind of device as a “hacking tool”.
xhevahir 3y ago
Huh? What does one mean by using the verb "self-destruct" transitively?
- sesm 3y ago
  I think they mean "destroys", but they don't want Flipper to look evil, they want the smart-meter to look fragile instead, so this unusual wording is used.
- jobigoud 3y ago
  Yeah it's pretty weird. With the word "suicide" it's sometimes used in this way to mean that one is pushed to commit the act by someone else. (Maybe more so in other languages where the verb is to suicide oneself). So it could mean that one device tricked the other into running a self-destruct command. But in the OP one device is sending commands that directly result in the bricking.
tgsovlerkhgsel 3y ago
Site is down, archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20230609052235/https://www.rtl-sdr.com/flipper-zero-self-destructs-an-electricity-smart-meter/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230609052235/https://www.rtl-s... The article centers around this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF6o9Ec4k_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF6o9Ec4k_o
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
LatteLazy 3y ago
If i were the writer/builder of Flipper I'd now be concerned SWAT were en route to arrest me for being the l33t hacker known as 4chan...
jacquesm 3y ago
The smart meter should have had better security. But the device isn't designed to switch heavy loads repeatedly, this is only meant to be used sporadically as an emergency cut-off (for instance, in case of a fire or if the customer is permanently disconnected for some reason). In case of a fire nobody cares about whether or not the smart meter survives. In case of a disconnect for administrative reasons the disconnect usually happens at night to minimize the risk of arcing. Keep in mind that your typical electrical service is 10's of KW and that switching that kind of power repeatedly under load requires a device that is essentially sacrificial in nature. Now let's see what they charge you for that meter replacement, it's not going to be cheap. Note that the meter isn't yours to mess with, it is in your house and on your property but from an administrative perspective your stuff starts after the mains cutoff which is downstream from the smart meter. Anything before that including the mains cutoff is the property of whoever manages the local network, either a specialized grid operator or the utility company that sells you the power. You can see which way it works by looking at your electricity bill and by whether or not you call your utility when there is a problem with the local grid or the network operator. Where I live these are separate legal entities, but in some places it is just the one. Finally: don't mess with the grid, it's a shared resource. It is trivial to cause damage by for instance injecting power at higher voltage levels than the appliances in the houses around you can deal with, blowing up a meter before your ability to cut off can have very unpredictable effects. In theory it is all safe and it should be able to withstand some abuse but in practice older networks still exist and not all of them are equally robust. So just don't.
- iudqnolq 3y ago
  Companies are remotely turning off meters for billing reasons when that isn't completely safe? They're just hoping and assuming if they do it at night there won't be much load? That doesn't sound very reassuring.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Name one instance where this led to a problem. Utilities are - if anything - usually quite responsible and if they mess up they are liable for any damage they cause.
praseodym 3y ago
In The Netherlands, functionality to remotely disable smart meters is forbidden by law to protect from (large scale) cyber attacks. Seeing how poor the security on this specific meter is, it only confirms that this was a great decision.
squarefoot 3y ago
Poor inrush current protection. That is a 100% meter/appliance fault, not the Flipper Zero, which just operates wirelessly a switch function that has been provided by the manufacturer from the beginning.
Vitamin_Sushi 3y ago
Interesting... I used to work on testing these old elster meters. Looking at the style number of this meter, it doesn't look like it's equipped with a disconnect relay, so at least he's not messing with that (even if a meter was equipped with a disconnect relay, the meter display should still be on during a disconnect event). I suspect he's cutting power to something other than the meter itself. I also see it's equipped with an energy axis (elster proprietary wireless network) so at the very least he'll be getting a fun visit from his power company wondering why he tripped various tamper detect flags in the meter (assuming his power company is actually ameren, a utility company in Missouri and Illinois and not canada like his yt profile says...). Since it also has that radio, I know it should also be encrypted. Unless that specific power company disabled LAN/WAN encryption... which we generally don't recommend and Canadian power infrastructure is pretty strict anyway when it comes to meter security. I'd be interested to see what exactly the flipper was communicating with (I'm sure my upper management would be even more interested as well). edit: I also just noticed the meter is stuck in test mode and the backup battery is missing. You can actually buy these meters on ebay, which is what I'm suspecting this guy did.
bdavbdav 3y ago
I thought most compressors were soft start - Most of the gear I’ve seen waits a random amount of time before spinning up for this exact reason (Power cuts and loads of fridges, ACs, ovens, whatever coming back on at once with a big ol’ inductive load)
bfrog 3y ago
Many many firmwares are absolute rubbish fed by solo or duo developer teams, writing crap C or worse C++ using a vendor hal, code gen tools, and a super loop. Good luck picking it back up or having another embedded person sort out the random zup file of sources and built images that these sorts of things encompass. Using some god awful half baked custom ide.
eternityforest 3y ago
I hope the Flipper Zero will be a wake up call to make things secure. Otherwise, it could lead to tech not being trustworthy, or Flipper Zeros and anything like it getting banned. It really seems like there are so many threats to technological society right now and not many people trying to defend it and make sure that in 50 years we still have access to the internet for most people and sensors monitoring our water supply.
agravier 3y ago
Heyall, I'd like to point to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmNAA2bVo4Q&t=270s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmNAA2bVo4Q&t=270s which may cast come doubt on the integrity of the tester

181 points by kungfudoi 3y ago

Not having much in the way of specifics about how this wireless vulnerability was found and exploited, this is really scary. It's one thing using Flipper Zero to pop the charging port on Tesla's [1], but this is just plain dangerous! [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWEUKeF5IPs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWEUKeF5IPs

louky 3y ago
AC units also typically really hate being flipped on and off by having the power cycled like that. >Eventually switching the meter on and off while under a heavy load
- jahewson 3y ago
  Yes indeed. This is how you destroy your compressor motor.
justsomehnguy 3y ago
In other news: flipping a power switch using Finger-O-Matic Power Flipper™ would make the magic smoke go out, too.
- Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago
  Yes, but unless you typically trespass on a neighboring property you won't get access to somebody's meter. With this you could potentially cause damage by standing outside the property line.
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    You could do that with a long pole, so what?
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  This is a straw man. Light switches don't have code running that can detect and ignore spam inputs.
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    This is a straw man. It wasn't Flipper who flipped the switch, it was the guy who operated Flipper
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  The radio isn't wired directly into the power supply. There's software in charge, and it would be bad for a software-controlled power button to do the same thing.

diftraku 3y ago

> In the video it appears that Peter was using the Flipper Zero to wireless turn the power meter on and off, which also controlled the power to a large AC unit. Eventually switching the meter on and off while under a heavy load resulted in the meter self destructing and releasing the magic smoke. Calling out Flipper Zero for someone (ab)using the meter's remote control features cuts me the wrong way: you could've done the same with any other SDR, not just the Flipper Zero. It's not even a surprise this happened, the cut-off is not meant to be operated constantly to cut heavy loads. Similarly you should not use a breaker to turn off heavy (or any, in that matter) loads as you're needlessly wearing down the protective device, instead of a separate cut-off switch that's designed to be replaceable. Especially since it can be positioned downstream from the protective device. It all boils down to which part of the circuit you can easily repair in case of a fault, in this case the meter is by far the least accessible.

wilg 3y ago
I got the vibe they were treating it as a cool hacker tool not calling out the Flipper Zero. But I don't know what any of this is really. I'm just some guy!
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rocqua 3y ago
> you could've done the same with any other SDR, not just the Flipper Zero. The specialness of the flipper zero is not that it can do more than any other SDR. The specialness is how easy it is to use. The question is what you can do in that 'easy mode'. That, in the easy mode, you can do this kind of realistic and meaningful damage is noteworthy. Because this potential is brought to the masses. It probably won't be the start of widespread SDR-based cyber-crime, but that brings it one step closer. That is why I consider this noteworthy news about the flipper zero specifically.
- pftburger 3y ago
  That said, it’s also important to demand device makers build better protections into their software (like rate limiting) in the same way they do for the hardware. Otherwise it leaves the door open for legislature trying to ban screwdrivers (tools)

SequoiaHope 3y ago

Interesting. I have heard about the Flipper Zero but I did not know which radio chip they were using before, the CC1101 [1]. I ran a failed startup and made a bunch of arduino based boards with TI CC1200 [2] chips. I failed spectacularly to deliver on my promises made during a frantic kickstarter run, delivering about 50% of the hardware before caving to extreme burn out. The issue is, I now have hundreds of boards with nice 64mhz Cortex M3 chips that run arduino code, and an attached CC1200 radio chip. They are pretty cute boards. But people already paid for them and I failed to deliver those to them, so I can't in good conscience sell them. Instead I have many boxes of these boards filling up space under my raised bed. I would love to donate them to some educational purpose, but I worry they are a bit of an odd board no one would have a big use for. I guess though if the flipper zero with a similar chip is useful, maybe these can be useful too. When they communicate over the normal protocol they can have up to 1km wireless range (high above ground, no obstructions). I do go to a hackerspace every week so I will have to bring some by and see what people say. But if anyone here has specific suggestions for places to donate them where they will actually get used, please share! [1] https://www.ti.com/product/CC1101 https://www.ti.com/product/CC1101 [2] https://www.ti.com/product/CC1200 https://www.ti.com/product/CC1200

austhrow743 3y ago
>But people already paid for them and I failed to deliver those to them, so I can't in good conscience sell them. Why couldn't you sell them and give the proceeds to the people who paid for them?
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  See my other replies above, but I had to take on debt to even get the hardware made, which then required me to get a full time job to pay off the debt. I tried to continue running the business on weekends but after years of burnout, working 7 days a week was killing me. I simply exceeded my capacity to continue operating the business, and so was unable to try selling the boards to refund people. I elaborate on this in the other replies but basically I had pushed through burnout for years on end by that point, and eventually you just hit a wall. You get to a point where there’s nothing you can do but walk away. That was 5 years in with no hope of success. I felt awful for letting all those people down, but I simply couldn’t continue to operate the business in any capacity, and no one wants to buy a failed business with loads of debt that has been eclipsed by venture funded startups shipping successful products.

sschueller 3y ago

This has nothing to do with the flipper zero or any other device using the CC1101 chip. It is the responsibility of the manufacturer of such smart meters to make them safe and if they are incapable of preventing a sub $10 chip found in thousands of devices from causing catastrophic failure then who is guaranteeing me that the meter is actually counting correctly! This is a failure of regulators and manufacturer, the media will spin it and next thing you know flipper zeros will be banned and smart meters will be as shitty as this one.

Daz1 3y ago
Incredible mental gymnastics
- atoav 3y ago
  If any sequence of (radio) button presses can lead to the violent destruction of your product, you are at fault. To rate limit switching would be a no brainer here.
  - stavros 3y ago
    How are you sure that it was the number of presses that caused it? It could have exploded on the first switching, because it's not designed to be switching off heavy loads.
    - gdprrrr 3y ago
      Then why does it switch heavy loads if it shouldn't do that?
      - stavros 3y ago
        Because someone unauthorized used a device to force it to do that. These devices are not built to be operated by the general public. Anyone who operates these devices knows to reduce the load first. I don't see the sense in saying "these devices, built for a specific industry with specific, exacting specs, should instead have been built with different specs that were never meant to occur". Everywhere in industry we train operators to know how to operate machinery that can be made to break itself, because it's cheaper to train the operator than to make the machine unable to break itself.

aetherspawn 3y ago

The more media attention and crappy unauthenticated infrastructure broken, the better. Requiring proper security in public infra creates market requirement for companies to release better, more secure, products to the public infra market. Not just whatever open radio based MVP thing they can whip up. And that creates jobs for not just EE engineers, but as security requirements increase then it creates jobs for SW engineers also (and if the existing players are too slow, opens the market for agile startups that can do it better). What's more, it makes our infrastructure more resilient to random RF and electronic warfare.

jojobas 3y ago
Unfortunately even though the unprotected meter is at fault here, this is more likely to result in an SDR ban rather than getting all crappy meters fixed.
nextlevelwizard 3y ago
My bet is that they are leading with the Flipper Zero for a reason. This shit has been broken since the beginning and enacting laws to fix this shit will be slow and expensive and many companies will be lobbying against it. Much easier to outlaw the Flipper Zero - as if that was the problem.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 3y ago
  The author of the original video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF6o9Ec4k_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF6o9Ec4k_o) likely called it that because they're showing off what their new toy can do. The SDR-related blog is also unlikely to have an agenda that includes getting certain types of SDRs banned.

georgeoliver 3y ago

Not to read too much into a video like this, but their tone when they say "Flipper, what did you do...?" — and then a bunch *more* switching — is quite the study in humans and (ab)use/hacking of technology.

wcoenen 3y ago
It's not clear to me what happened after the meter started to smoke. Perhaps it started turning on and off by itself after that point?
tonymillion 3y ago
I came here to say exactly this … complete avoidance of responsibility on the author of the videos part. “Flipper what did you do?” Should have been “What did I make flipper do?” In addition the articles title “flipper causes meter to self destruct” should be titled “person using radio device to cause smart meter to rapidly turn on an off causes failure in meter components”. I’d probably phrase it more like “Idiot with ‘hacking tool’ rapidly switches electricity meter without understanding current inrush and failure states of high voltage high current system, luckily escapes death by explosion or causing a fire”

randunel 3y ago

The apartment buildings in my area all have wireless gas leak detectors, this video makes me want to take out my HackRF and start experimenting with mine. Flipper Zero isn't what's causing this, the bad "smart" devices are, and the culprits themselves, of course. Just because you can hack a system, doesn't make it legal. Know your local laws. Mine says "accessing any IT system without authorisation is punishable with imprisonment from 3m to 3y; accessing the aforementioned system with the purpose of obtaining data is punishable with imprisonment from 6m to 5y.", vague enough for all of these things.

Demmme 3y ago
Black hat vs white hat. As soon as I would discover I could do that, I would inform the company not some scritkiddies on the internet. This is just irresponsible
- nextlevelwizard 3y ago
  How often have we seen good intentions be punished?
  - Demmme 3y ago
    More often than not. I don't buy this and will not act shitty just because
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > This is just irresponsible And reporting to the vendor is suicidal. At least assuming the stories I hear about vulnerability disclosures are representative, which I think they are. In their place, if I were to inform the company, I'd do it anonymously. If it was an actually important issue - as this very much looks like - I'd consider informing the building manager, HOA, the gas installation company they use, and every local journalist, all together so they know about each other - and then CC that to the vendor.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 3y ago

philjohn 3y ago

Inductive load + relay = arcing and a bad time when disconnected.

ThrowawayTestr 3y ago

Everyone even marginally aware knows that modern society is held together by a thin layer of "security". The Flipper just makes what was available for a long time cheaper and more accessible.

knorker 3y ago

I don't think that's what "self" destructs means. You can't self destruct something else. You can only self destruct yourself.

_fizz_buzz_ 3y ago
It self destructs in the sense that no external force was applied to it.
- dismalpedigree 3y ago
  Technically the radio waves provide force, even if it is infinitesimally small
  - hn92726819 3y ago
    The radio wave force isn't what's causing the destruction. It triggers the device's self-destruction. You wouldn't say a remote controlled robot that destroys itself on (wireless) command isn't a self-destructing device.
    - tantalor 3y ago
      That's not what's happening here. This device is not designed to "self destruct" with a specific command. It is following normal service commands. The correct analogy would be if you command a robot to move so it falls off a cliff, this is not a "self destruct" command.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        If you order a robot off a cliff, the proximate cause of the damage is the cliff. If you order a robot to turn on and off too fast, the proximate cause of the damage is the internal power circuitry. Which makes "self-destruct" pretty appropriate language.
planb 3y ago

sureglymop 3y ago

Peter Fairlie's videos are amazing!

rcarmo 3y ago

Sadly, this will provide a lot of ammunition to those wanting to restrict this kind of device as a “hacking tool”.

xhevahir 3y ago

Huh? What does one mean by using the verb "self-destruct" transitively?

sesm 3y ago
I think they mean "destroys", but they don't want Flipper to look evil, they want the smart-meter to look fragile instead, so this unusual wording is used.
jobigoud 3y ago
Yeah it's pretty weird. With the word "suicide" it's sometimes used in this way to mean that one is pushed to commit the act by someone else. (Maybe more so in other languages where the verb is to suicide oneself). So it could mean that one device tricked the other into running a self-destruct command. But in the OP one device is sending commands that directly result in the bricking.

tgsovlerkhgsel 3y ago

Site is down, archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20230609052235/https://www.rtl-sdr.com/flipper-zero-self-destructs-an-electricity-smart-meter/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230609052235/https://www.rtl-s... The article centers around this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF6o9Ec4k_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF6o9Ec4k_o

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

LatteLazy 3y ago

If i were the writer/builder of Flipper I'd now be concerned SWAT were en route to arrest me for being the l33t hacker known as 4chan...

jacquesm 3y ago

The smart meter should have had better security. But the device isn't designed to switch heavy loads repeatedly, this is only meant to be used sporadically as an emergency cut-off (for instance, in case of a fire or if the customer is permanently disconnected for some reason). In case of a fire nobody cares about whether or not the smart meter survives. In case of a disconnect for administrative reasons the disconnect usually happens at night to minimize the risk of arcing. Keep in mind that your typical electrical service is 10's of KW and that switching that kind of power repeatedly under load requires a device that is essentially sacrificial in nature. Now let's see what they charge you for that meter replacement, it's not going to be cheap. Note that the meter isn't yours to mess with, it is in your house and on your property but from an administrative perspective your stuff starts after the mains cutoff which is downstream from the smart meter. Anything before that including the mains cutoff is the property of whoever manages the local network, either a specialized grid operator or the utility company that sells you the power. You can see which way it works by looking at your electricity bill and by whether or not you call your utility when there is a problem with the local grid or the network operator. Where I live these are separate legal entities, but in some places it is just the one. Finally: don't mess with the grid, it's a shared resource. It is trivial to cause damage by for instance injecting power at higher voltage levels than the appliances in the houses around you can deal with, blowing up a meter before your ability to cut off can have very unpredictable effects. In theory it is all safe and it should be able to withstand some abuse but in practice older networks still exist and not all of them are equally robust. So just don't.

iudqnolq 3y ago
Companies are remotely turning off meters for billing reasons when that isn't completely safe? They're just hoping and assuming if they do it at night there won't be much load? That doesn't sound very reassuring.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Name one instance where this led to a problem. Utilities are - if anything - usually quite responsible and if they mess up they are liable for any damage they cause.

praseodym 3y ago

In The Netherlands, functionality to remotely disable smart meters is forbidden by law to protect from (large scale) cyber attacks. Seeing how poor the security on this specific meter is, it only confirms that this was a great decision.

squarefoot 3y ago

Poor inrush current protection. That is a 100% meter/appliance fault, not the Flipper Zero, which just operates wirelessly a switch function that has been provided by the manufacturer from the beginning.

Vitamin_Sushi 3y ago

Interesting... I used to work on testing these old elster meters. Looking at the style number of this meter, it doesn't look like it's equipped with a disconnect relay, so at least he's not messing with that (even if a meter was equipped with a disconnect relay, the meter display should still be on during a disconnect event). I suspect he's cutting power to something other than the meter itself. I also see it's equipped with an energy axis (elster proprietary wireless network) so at the very least he'll be getting a fun visit from his power company wondering why he tripped various tamper detect flags in the meter (assuming his power company is actually ameren, a utility company in Missouri and Illinois and not canada like his yt profile says...). Since it also has that radio, I know it should also be encrypted. Unless that specific power company disabled LAN/WAN encryption... which we generally don't recommend and Canadian power infrastructure is pretty strict anyway when it comes to meter security. I'd be interested to see what exactly the flipper was communicating with (I'm sure my upper management would be even more interested as well). edit: I also just noticed the meter is stuck in test mode and the backup battery is missing. You can actually buy these meters on ebay, which is what I'm suspecting this guy did.

bdavbdav 3y ago

I thought most compressors were soft start - Most of the gear I’ve seen waits a random amount of time before spinning up for this exact reason (Power cuts and loads of fridges, ACs, ovens, whatever coming back on at once with a big ol’ inductive load)

bfrog 3y ago

Many many firmwares are absolute rubbish fed by solo or duo developer teams, writing crap C or worse C++ using a vendor hal, code gen tools, and a super loop. Good luck picking it back up or having another embedded person sort out the random zup file of sources and built images that these sorts of things encompass. Using some god awful half baked custom ide.

eternityforest 3y ago

I hope the Flipper Zero will be a wake up call to make things secure. Otherwise, it could lead to tech not being trustworthy, or Flipper Zeros and anything like it getting banned. It really seems like there are so many threats to technological society right now and not many people trying to defend it and make sure that in 50 years we still have access to the internet for most people and sensors monitoring our water supply.

agravier 3y ago

Heyall, I'd like to point to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmNAA2bVo4Q&t=270s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmNAA2bVo4Q&t=270s which may cast come doubt on the integrity of the tester