35 ms·

Apollo made business decisions, that turned out to be very short sighted. Apollo sold access to someone else's system, for next to nothing, and now is caught ha

by Alupis 3y ago

Apollo made business decisions, that turned out to be very short sighted. Apollo sold access to someone else's system, for next to nothing, and now is caught having to pay for that access like any reasonable business would expect. We can debate if the API fees are reasonable or not - but at the end of the day, Apollo chose a model that doesn't work unless Reddit continued to favor them and apps like them. Foolish, is one word that comes to mind. Given the popularity of Apollo, and the public outcry over the news it will be shutting down - I see zero reason Apollo couldn't switch to a monthly billing model - even if it requires refunding old subscriptions which they are already going to do. This is a self-made disaster for Apollo, a failure to be forward thinking and control risks. The founder started Apollo as a university project - but somehow forgot to become a real business along the way it seems.

mynameisvlad 3y ago
I'm not really sure what benefit you get out of harping on a developer you will likely never meet or interact with in a third party forum, but power to you. Nobody really cares about your opinion on him or a monthly subscription; he explicitly said it's not going to happen and at the end of the day that's his decision to make, not yours. He doesn't even need to give a reason for shutting down. It's his personal project to manage and he's the only one who's ever worked on it. It's also clear you haven't read the article, because he explicitly calls out a bunch of criticisms you have of him directly. > Isn't this your fault for building a service reliant on someone else? > To a certain extent, yes. However, I was assured this year by Reddit not even that long ago that no changes were planned to be made to the API Apollo uses, and I've made decisions about how to monetize my business based on what Reddit has said. > > January 26, 2023 Reddit: "So I would expect no change, certainly not in the short to medium term. And we're talking like order of years." > Another portion of the call: > > January 26, 2023 Reddit: "There's not gonna be any change on it. There's no plans to, there's no plans to touch it right now in 2023. Me: "Fair enough." Reddit: "And if we do touch it, we're going to be improving it in some way." > Your initial post in April sounded quite optimistic. Are you dumb? > In hindsight, kinda yeah. Many of the other developers and folks I talked to were much less optimistic than I was, but I legitimately had great interactions with Reddit for many years prior to last week (they were kind, communicative, gave me heads up of changes), so when they said they were aiming to have pricing that would be fair and based in reality, I honestly believed them. That was foolish of me in hindsight, and maybe could have had a different outcome if I was more aggressive in the beginning. Sorry. /canadian > (And to be clear, they did indeed say this. They used the word "substantive" and I wanted to make sure we had the same definition of something "having a firm basis in reality and therefore important, meaningful, or considerable") > > Reddit: "That's exactly right. And I think, thankfully, the word is exactly the right one. It's going to have a firm basis in reality. I also just looked it up. We're going to try to be as transparent as we can."
- websap 3y ago
  [flagged]
- LorenPechtel 3y ago
  It occurs to me--could he go after Reddit for the cost of all those refunds? Detrimental reliance.
- mulmen 3y ago
  The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Reading this with 15 years of corporate experience the developer was at best naive. In corporate speak Reddit is completely consistent in their actions and words. It's a crappy situation and I'm sure the developer is a great person and I agree Reddit did them dirty but also that's how these things work. You don't take dependencies on third parties without a lawyer and a contract. > There's not gonna be any change on it. Nobody can make this promise, those are just words to make you feel good. > There's no plans to, there's no plans to touch it right now in 2023. Plans can be made quickly. Action can be taken without a plan. What is the guarantee on lead time? > And if we do touch it, we're going to be improving it in some way. Define improvement. Improved for who? > It's going to have a firm basis in reality. I have no doubt that Reddit based the API pricing on them making money on it. We can debate if they got it right. > We're going to try to be as transparent as we can. Try is a weasel word, this sentence is meaningless. Zero transparency can be provided and still meet the standard of being "as transparent as possible". "Try" here even gives them the opportunity to be less transparent than possible. The Glomar defense ("We can neither confirm nor deny") is "as transparent as possible" and actually meets a higher standard than Reddit promised here because the CIA didn't just "try", they successfully provided the most possible transparency (almost none).
  - mynameisvlad 3y ago
    I'm just going to leave this first sentence from my comment here; it very much applies to you as well. > I'm not really sure what benefit you get out of harping on a developer you will likely never meet or interact with in a third party forum, but power to you. Y'all need to find a better hobby. As per his own words, he also clearly realizes that in hindsight he should have been more pessimistic. But that's all moot now. The past is in the past. Pointing it out is not going to do anything.
Dylan16807 3y ago
> We can debate if the API fees are reasonable or not - but at the end of the day, Apollo chose a model that doesn't work unless Reddit continued to favor them and apps like them. Reddit could simply treat them reasonably and things would be fine. There's no need for favoritism, they just need to stop being actively harmful. And part of that is the fees (they're not reasonable).
- mulmen 3y ago
  Yeah a ramp-up of the fees or more than 30 days of notice would be enough.
- cyberpunk 3y ago
  I have real sympathy for the developer of Apollo; at the same time it was such a huge and obvious risk to stake your entire business on the whims of another that I find it difficult to be 100% sympathetic. It's like, I know this funded company that's doing a lot of work using intel SGX, if intel kill it, about 80 people lose the jobs and several million in VC goes up in smoke. It's insane to me that people are building businesses that can be killed by 3rd parties that they have no hope of influencing, and have no contracts with. Another chapter of the internet drama concludes, I suppose. I wish them all the best and I'll be curious to see if reddit survives.
  - tremon 3y ago
    it was such a huge and obvious risk to stake your entire business on the whims of another How is this different than any other business running (part of) their operations at a large cloud provider? Or a business having to renew their contract with the power company?
    - cyberpunk 3y ago
      You can change cloud and energy provider, Apollo can't change reddit provider. ?
    - Alupis 3y ago
      > How is this different than any other business running (part of) their operations at a large cloud provider? You pay for your cloud provider...
mcphage 3y ago
> I see zero reason Apollo couldn't switch to a monthly billing model He probably could, but not in 30 days. > but somehow forgot to become a real business along the way it seems. Or chose not to.
- shagie 3y ago
  Thirty days is not entirely representative of the timeframe for the change. Two and a half months is closer to the proper range. Reddit will begin charging for access to its API (nytimes.com) 303 points by alexrustic 51 days ago | 339 comments --- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35617763 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35617763 https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12ram0f/had_a_few_calls_with_reddit_today_about_the/ https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12ram0f/had_a_fe... was posted April 19th. https://www.redditinc.com/blog/2023apiupdates https://www.redditinc.com/blog/2023apiupdates > ANNOUNCEMENTS Staff • April 18, 2023 > ... > To ensure developers have the tools and information they need to continue to use Reddit safely, protect our users’ privacy and security, and adhere to local regulations, we’re making updates to the ways some can access the Reddit Data API: > We are introducing a new premium access point for third parties who require additional capabilities, higher usage limits, and broader usage rights.
  - mynameisvlad 3y ago
    How, exactly, would you expect someone to change their pricing model when they don’t know what the prices would be? The prices themselves were announced May 30th. I guess if you’re feeling generous, that would be 32 days notice. He had notice there would be a change and was explicitly told: > The information they did provide however was: we will be moving to a paid API as it's not tenable for Reddit to pay for third-party apps indefinitely (understandable, agreed), so they're looking to do equitable pricing based in reality. They mentioned that they were not looking to be like Twitter, which has API pricing so high it was publicly ridiculed. There is absolutely no actionable information there, and everything they said indicated that it wouldn’t be an unreasonable change.
    - Alupis 3y ago
rtsil 3y ago
There is nothing foolish about all of this. The developer saw an opportunity based on the platform's free access, and built a business on it. Wise decision. Then the platform is no longer free, so the original business case no longer exists, and they decide to shut down. Another wise decision.

by Alupis 3y ago

mynameisvlad 3y ago

I'm not really sure what benefit you get out of harping on a developer you will likely never meet or interact with in a third party forum, but power to you. Nobody really cares about your opinion on him or a monthly subscription; he explicitly said it's not going to happen and at the end of the day that's his decision to make, not yours. He doesn't even need to give a reason for shutting down. It's his personal project to manage and he's the only one who's ever worked on it. It's also clear you haven't read the article, because he explicitly calls out a bunch of criticisms you have of him directly. > Isn't this your fault for building a service reliant on someone else? > To a certain extent, yes. However, I was assured this year by Reddit not even that long ago that no changes were planned to be made to the API Apollo uses, and I've made decisions about how to monetize my business based on what Reddit has said. > > January 26, 2023 Reddit: "So I would expect no change, certainly not in the short to medium term. And we're talking like order of years." > Another portion of the call: > > January 26, 2023 Reddit: "There's not gonna be any change on it. There's no plans to, there's no plans to touch it right now in 2023. Me: "Fair enough." Reddit: "And if we do touch it, we're going to be improving it in some way." > Your initial post in April sounded quite optimistic. Are you dumb? > In hindsight, kinda yeah. Many of the other developers and folks I talked to were much less optimistic than I was, but I legitimately had great interactions with Reddit for many years prior to last week (they were kind, communicative, gave me heads up of changes), so when they said they were aiming to have pricing that would be fair and based in reality, I honestly believed them. That was foolish of me in hindsight, and maybe could have had a different outcome if I was more aggressive in the beginning. Sorry. /canadian > (And to be clear, they did indeed say this. They used the word "substantive" and I wanted to make sure we had the same definition of something "having a firm basis in reality and therefore important, meaningful, or considerable") > > Reddit: "That's exactly right. And I think, thankfully, the word is exactly the right one. It's going to have a firm basis in reality. I also just looked it up. We're going to try to be as transparent as we can."

websap 3y ago
[flagged]
LorenPechtel 3y ago
It occurs to me--could he go after Reddit for the cost of all those refunds? Detrimental reliance.
mulmen 3y ago
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Reading this with 15 years of corporate experience the developer was at best naive. In corporate speak Reddit is completely consistent in their actions and words. It's a crappy situation and I'm sure the developer is a great person and I agree Reddit did them dirty but also that's how these things work. You don't take dependencies on third parties without a lawyer and a contract. > There's not gonna be any change on it. Nobody can make this promise, those are just words to make you feel good. > There's no plans to, there's no plans to touch it right now in 2023. Plans can be made quickly. Action can be taken without a plan. What is the guarantee on lead time? > And if we do touch it, we're going to be improving it in some way. Define improvement. Improved for who? > It's going to have a firm basis in reality. I have no doubt that Reddit based the API pricing on them making money on it. We can debate if they got it right. > We're going to try to be as transparent as we can. Try is a weasel word, this sentence is meaningless. Zero transparency can be provided and still meet the standard of being "as transparent as possible". "Try" here even gives them the opportunity to be less transparent than possible. The Glomar defense ("We can neither confirm nor deny") is "as transparent as possible" and actually meets a higher standard than Reddit promised here because the CIA didn't just "try", they successfully provided the most possible transparency (almost none).
- mynameisvlad 3y ago
  I'm just going to leave this first sentence from my comment here; it very much applies to you as well. > I'm not really sure what benefit you get out of harping on a developer you will likely never meet or interact with in a third party forum, but power to you. Y'all need to find a better hobby. As per his own words, he also clearly realizes that in hindsight he should have been more pessimistic. But that's all moot now. The past is in the past. Pointing it out is not going to do anything.

Dylan16807 3y ago

> We can debate if the API fees are reasonable or not - but at the end of the day, Apollo chose a model that doesn't work unless Reddit continued to favor them and apps like them. Reddit could simply treat them reasonably and things would be fine. There's no need for favoritism, they just need to stop being actively harmful. And part of that is the fees (they're not reasonable).

mulmen 3y ago
Yeah a ramp-up of the fees or more than 30 days of notice would be enough.
cyberpunk 3y ago
I have real sympathy for the developer of Apollo; at the same time it was such a huge and obvious risk to stake your entire business on the whims of another that I find it difficult to be 100% sympathetic. It's like, I know this funded company that's doing a lot of work using intel SGX, if intel kill it, about 80 people lose the jobs and several million in VC goes up in smoke. It's insane to me that people are building businesses that can be killed by 3rd parties that they have no hope of influencing, and have no contracts with. Another chapter of the internet drama concludes, I suppose. I wish them all the best and I'll be curious to see if reddit survives.
- tremon 3y ago
  it was such a huge and obvious risk to stake your entire business on the whims of another How is this different than any other business running (part of) their operations at a large cloud provider? Or a business having to renew their contract with the power company?
  - cyberpunk 3y ago
    You can change cloud and energy provider, Apollo can't change reddit provider. ?
  - Alupis 3y ago
    > How is this different than any other business running (part of) their operations at a large cloud provider? You pay for your cloud provider...

mcphage 3y ago

> I see zero reason Apollo couldn't switch to a monthly billing model He probably could, but not in 30 days. > but somehow forgot to become a real business along the way it seems. Or chose not to.

shagie 3y ago
Thirty days is not entirely representative of the timeframe for the change. Two and a half months is closer to the proper range. Reddit will begin charging for access to its API (nytimes.com) 303 points by alexrustic 51 days ago | 339 comments --- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35617763 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35617763 https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12ram0f/had_a_few_calls_with_reddit_today_about_the/ https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12ram0f/had_a_fe... was posted April 19th. https://www.redditinc.com/blog/2023apiupdates https://www.redditinc.com/blog/2023apiupdates > ANNOUNCEMENTS Staff • April 18, 2023 > ... > To ensure developers have the tools and information they need to continue to use Reddit safely, protect our users’ privacy and security, and adhere to local regulations, we’re making updates to the ways some can access the Reddit Data API: > We are introducing a new premium access point for third parties who require additional capabilities, higher usage limits, and broader usage rights.
- mynameisvlad 3y ago
  How, exactly, would you expect someone to change their pricing model when they don’t know what the prices would be? The prices themselves were announced May 30th. I guess if you’re feeling generous, that would be 32 days notice. He had notice there would be a change and was explicitly told: > The information they did provide however was: we will be moving to a paid API as it's not tenable for Reddit to pay for third-party apps indefinitely (understandable, agreed), so they're looking to do equitable pricing based in reality. They mentioned that they were not looking to be like Twitter, which has API pricing so high it was publicly ridiculed. There is absolutely no actionable information there, and everything they said indicated that it wouldn’t be an unreasonable change.
  - Alupis 3y ago

rtsil 3y ago

There is nothing foolish about all of this. The developer saw an opportunity based on the platform's free access, and built a business on it. Wise decision. Then the platform is no longer free, so the original business case no longer exists, and they decide to shut down. Another wise decision.