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To be honest it sounded like that to me too. It's very hard to differentiate between some honest clumsy phrasing and fishing for a payout, and the "clarificatio

by dtech 3y ago

To be honest it sounded like that to me too. It's very hard to differentiate between some honest clumsy phrasing and fishing for a payout, and the "clarification" doesn't help with that since it could also be an excuse to save face.

Panoramix 3y ago
Maybe with text snippets, but I don't see how somebody can listen to the conversation and come away with the idea that the dev was blackmailing anyone. https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-31-end.m4a https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-...
- xNeil 3y ago
  I mean, even in the text snippets you can see that they seem to understand after a bit as to what Christian was talking about.
  - dtech 3y ago
    in both the text snippet and the audio it sounds to me like 2 people politely pretending that the offer wasn't made. Notice how the CEO basically immediately cuts off the call after the "clarification"
- dbbk 3y ago
  I don't really buy the phrase "go quiet" in terms of API usage, it does sound like the developer was backtracking when called out on it
  - crypot 3y ago
    Definitely. It just makes no sense otherwise.
  - roflyear 3y ago
    Why misquote? He said "have Apollo quiet down" not "go quiet" he only said "go quiet" after the Reddit rep said that, in response. At least have your facts straight.
    - dbbk 3y ago
      Okay but what does this even mean in terms of API usage? Why would Reddit buying Apollo "quiet down" its API usage? I accept I may just be missing something here but I don't understand this.
      - thepasswordis 3y ago
        Because if reddit owns it, they can shut it down and nag the users to install the official app.
        dbbk 3y ago
        It’s getting shut down even if they don’t buy it.
- gojomo 3y ago
  Having just listened, I can understand that misinterpretation! I can buy that Selig's words may have been intended, at some level, as a jokey hypothetical to draw a point into contrast. That is, he meant it as (fleshed-out sympathetic rewording): "If this really is just about a $20M drain to you, it'd be a dead-simple & efficient solution to pay $10M to make me go away quietly forever. But of course I wouldn't ask for that & you wouldn't do it, thus this isn't really just about solving your $20M/year cost center, but other mutually-agreeable futures." But Selig's actual wording in the clip is exactly how people coyly/semi-deniably imply that they be handed various kinds of "go-away" or "hush" money. (That includes arrangements that might not technically be "blackmail" as a legal definition, but feel like vernacular 'blackmail' to laypeople or business-negotiators.) Selig's opening words, of this audio clip, absolutely sound like an actionable offer "pay me this specific cash amount & your troubles – both technical/competitive & in terms of any ruckus I can raise in public – go away." I mean, here's Selig's exact words: "Uh, hey, I could make it really easy on you, if you think Apollo is costing you $20M a year, you cut me a check for $10M, and we can both skip off into the sunset. 6 months of use, we're good. That's mostly a joke." Until "that's mostly a joke", & depending on earlier context/levels-of-mutual-trust, that sounds like a specific offer to do whatever eases things for Reddit in return for $10M cash. And even after "that's mostly a joke", the 'mostly' leaves open that maybe something of this shape is legitimately in Selig's mind as a resolution.
  - TechBro8615 3y ago
    > "pay me this specific cash amount & your troubles – both technical/competitive & in terms of any ruckus I can raise in public – go away." Wait a second, isn't that exactly what Reddit is doing by charging for API access with thirty days notice?
  - quickthrowman 3y ago
    > Uh, hey, I could make it really easy on you, if you think Apollo is costing you $20M a year, you cut me a check for $10M, and we can both skip off into the sunset. 6 months of use, we're good. This is an offer to sell Apollo. The opening stage of a negotiation. There’s nothing wrong with saying this, at all.
- defen 3y ago
  I'm shocked that people are interpreting this as not fishing for a payoff, honestly. "We can both skip off into the sunset" does not mean "rewrite the app to do fewer API calls", as he tries to claim later in the call. It means it's done, over, everyone is happy. And why would he say "mostly joking" if he actually meant doing fewer API requests? Nothing about this recording or transcript makes me think Selig is an honest person.
  - roflyear 3y ago
    That isn't what he claims later in the call. He claims that he'd shut down the app for $10m. How is that unreasonable?
    - dbbk 3y ago
      The app is getting shut down for $0 regardless, why would anyone pay $10m to shut it down?
      - actionablefiber 3y ago
        I'm sure the price is negotiable. Off the top of my head, the reasons you'd pay any nonzero amount of money for it are: 1. You avoid all of this drama. Christian makes a post that says, "Reddit offered me a lot of money and I said yes because I want to have a lot of money. It's been a pleasure working with them and it's been a pleasure developing Apollo for you. Peace out." Reddit ran this playbook with Alien Blue and it worked out. 2. Reddit could rather enshittify Apollo gradually, and/or fold Apollo's subscription model into Reddit's own model to maintain a premium power-user experience. It is an absurdly well-polished app, even if you added advertisements to it. It is a better user experience if the app gets worse slowly than if it disappears all at once and forces everyone to migrate to a new app. Reddit ran this playbook with Alien Blue and it worked out.
        haarolean 3y ago
        Enshittify! What a nice verb
ohgodplsno 3y ago
And the Apollo dev would be well within his right to _actually_ threaten them like that, because that's what Reddit is doing to him.
rdlw 3y ago
I don't understand, what is the threat on Christian's part? His project is being killed, that's not a threat but something that is actually happening. He suggests that they pay him a small fraction of what he has cost them to shut down without compromising the reddit API as a whole. What's the threat, that he keeps operating? That's not an option, they are FORCING him to shut down.
- roflyear 3y ago
  Christian was extremely awkward during that call - no way this guy was making some underhanded threat. He spoke in a poor way for sure.

by dtech 3y ago

Panoramix 3y ago

Maybe with text snippets, but I don't see how somebody can listen to the conversation and come away with the idea that the dev was blackmailing anyone. https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-31-end.m4a https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-...

xNeil 3y ago
I mean, even in the text snippets you can see that they seem to understand after a bit as to what Christian was talking about.
- dtech 3y ago
  in both the text snippet and the audio it sounds to me like 2 people politely pretending that the offer wasn't made. Notice how the CEO basically immediately cuts off the call after the "clarification"
dbbk 3y ago
I don't really buy the phrase "go quiet" in terms of API usage, it does sound like the developer was backtracking when called out on it
- crypot 3y ago
  Definitely. It just makes no sense otherwise.
- roflyear 3y ago
  Why misquote? He said "have Apollo quiet down" not "go quiet" he only said "go quiet" after the Reddit rep said that, in response. At least have your facts straight.
  - dbbk 3y ago
    Okay but what does this even mean in terms of API usage? Why would Reddit buying Apollo "quiet down" its API usage? I accept I may just be missing something here but I don't understand this.
    - thepasswordis 3y ago
      Because if reddit owns it, they can shut it down and nag the users to install the official app.
      - dbbk 3y ago
        It’s getting shut down even if they don’t buy it.
gojomo 3y ago
Having just listened, I can understand that misinterpretation! I can buy that Selig's words may have been intended, at some level, as a jokey hypothetical to draw a point into contrast. That is, he meant it as (fleshed-out sympathetic rewording): "If this really is just about a $20M drain to you, it'd be a dead-simple & efficient solution to pay $10M to make me go away quietly forever. But of course I wouldn't ask for that & you wouldn't do it, thus this isn't really just about solving your $20M/year cost center, but other mutually-agreeable futures." But Selig's actual wording in the clip is exactly how people coyly/semi-deniably imply that they be handed various kinds of "go-away" or "hush" money. (That includes arrangements that might not technically be "blackmail" as a legal definition, but feel like vernacular 'blackmail' to laypeople or business-negotiators.) Selig's opening words, of this audio clip, absolutely sound like an actionable offer "pay me this specific cash amount & your troubles – both technical/competitive & in terms of any ruckus I can raise in public – go away." I mean, here's Selig's exact words: "Uh, hey, I could make it really easy on you, if you think Apollo is costing you $20M a year, you cut me a check for $10M, and we can both skip off into the sunset. 6 months of use, we're good. That's mostly a joke." Until "that's mostly a joke", & depending on earlier context/levels-of-mutual-trust, that sounds like a specific offer to do whatever eases things for Reddit in return for $10M cash. And even after "that's mostly a joke", the 'mostly' leaves open that maybe something of this shape is legitimately in Selig's mind as a resolution.
- TechBro8615 3y ago
  > "pay me this specific cash amount & your troubles – both technical/competitive & in terms of any ruckus I can raise in public – go away." Wait a second, isn't that exactly what Reddit is doing by charging for API access with thirty days notice?
- quickthrowman 3y ago
  > Uh, hey, I could make it really easy on you, if you think Apollo is costing you $20M a year, you cut me a check for $10M, and we can both skip off into the sunset. 6 months of use, we're good. This is an offer to sell Apollo. The opening stage of a negotiation. There’s nothing wrong with saying this, at all.
defen 3y ago
I'm shocked that people are interpreting this as not fishing for a payoff, honestly. "We can both skip off into the sunset" does not mean "rewrite the app to do fewer API calls", as he tries to claim later in the call. It means it's done, over, everyone is happy. And why would he say "mostly joking" if he actually meant doing fewer API requests? Nothing about this recording or transcript makes me think Selig is an honest person.
- roflyear 3y ago
  That isn't what he claims later in the call. He claims that he'd shut down the app for $10m. How is that unreasonable?
  - dbbk 3y ago
    The app is getting shut down for $0 regardless, why would anyone pay $10m to shut it down?
    - actionablefiber 3y ago
      I'm sure the price is negotiable. Off the top of my head, the reasons you'd pay any nonzero amount of money for it are: 1. You avoid all of this drama. Christian makes a post that says, "Reddit offered me a lot of money and I said yes because I want to have a lot of money. It's been a pleasure working with them and it's been a pleasure developing Apollo for you. Peace out." Reddit ran this playbook with Alien Blue and it worked out. 2. Reddit could rather enshittify Apollo gradually, and/or fold Apollo's subscription model into Reddit's own model to maintain a premium power-user experience. It is an absurdly well-polished app, even if you added advertisements to it. It is a better user experience if the app gets worse slowly than if it disappears all at once and forces everyone to migrate to a new app. Reddit ran this playbook with Alien Blue and it worked out.
      - haarolean 3y ago
        Enshittify! What a nice verb

ohgodplsno 3y ago

And the Apollo dev would be well within his right to _actually_ threaten them like that, because that's what Reddit is doing to him.

rdlw 3y ago

I don't understand, what is the threat on Christian's part? His project is being killed, that's not a threat but something that is actually happening. He suggests that they pay him a small fraction of what he has cost them to shut down without compromising the reddit API as a whole. What's the threat, that he keeps operating? That's not an option, they are FORCING him to shut down.

roflyear 3y ago
Christian was extremely awkward during that call - no way this guy was making some underhanded threat. He spoke in a poor way for sure.