5 ms·

The issue is that the employees that do love hybrid/on-site also have to force everyone else to become hybrid - otherwise, their hybrid days become "video meeti

by judge2020 3y ago

The issue is that the employees that do love hybrid/on-site also have to force everyone else to become hybrid - otherwise, their hybrid days become "video meetings but in a different building".

mym1990 3y ago
No one but management is forcing anyone to do anything. If I do well in person, then as a colleague I need to respect that other people might do well remote, and vice versa.
- dcow 3y ago
  That’s why hybrid policies represent a compromise. If you’re more than 2 years old you understand the meaning of compromise. Nobody get’s exactly what they want, but the outcome aims to please both sides by offering affordances in both directions.
  - p0pcult 3y ago
    [dead]
  - mym1990 3y ago
    Where did I say hybrid was not a compromise? If you're more than 5 years old you should be able to read my comment and interpret it correctly.
    - dcow 3y ago
      Sorry that wasn't meant to be directed at you. I was responding to the thread of discussion. I think we agree, and I was just reiterating that because there are two sides people need to compromise. I was also expressing frustration that there are still people chiming in to the tune of "well I want to be at home all day every day and hybrid is bad for me so RTO and anybody who supports it is full of shit" without any ability to, well, compromise.
- judge2020 3y ago
  Sure, but these hybrid policies aren't just the result of management wanting to see busybodies typing, but people that still bother to come into the office making small talk like "yeah it's always empty" or "that onsite day was nice, wish my team was here more often". They likely still respect everyone's preference, but management needs to keep everyone happy, so hybrid is the compromise and it allows management to justify their multiple-million-dollar commercial real-estate investments.
jvanderbot 3y ago
That hasn't been my experience. Given the option, most the people-needers congregate at work, while the slightly more introverted types work from home. Its not the screens during meetings that bother the extraverted ones, it's the lack of people nearby which sets the temperature of their workday.
- MSFT_Edging 3y ago
  > it's the lack of people nearby which sets the temperature of their workday. This is what bothers me, why should I lose an hour+ of MY day because some people like the feeling of others around them. I don't get that time back, I don't get the money for the wear and tear on my vehicle, all so someone feels warm and cozy, unrelated to the actual productivity of the work. Employers love to treat employees as numbers, but when employees say "Hey I'm a number, look at my productivity, don't make me participate in these rituals", people act like its childish. I don't owe anything to my employer, because they don't owe me anything except the legal compensation for the work.
  - dcow 3y ago
    The argument is that your team’s quality of work, whether you like it or not, suffers without some amount of human interaction. You need to address that, not just parrot the personal preference to be a good little Jira closing productive remote cog and not interact with anybody at all. Not that I don't agree that companies should do a better job understanding individual productivity, but that’s not the argument.
    - 8note 3y ago
      Where's the numbers to support that argument? The jira closer has tickets to point at
      - dcow 3y ago
        Rate of Jira tickets closed does not equate to "quality product". It (optimistically) means "lots of work done". The numbers you're looking for would come from user product feedback and bug reports, but it also comes subjectively from the product owner/leader's assessment of the product's performance. That's the nuance that leadership deals with every day and which we often overlook as good little Jira closing robots.
wbl 3y ago
My boss is in Florida, I am in the bay, most of the rest of the team is in the other bay. We're not having an F2F.
- dcow 3y ago
  Sounds like you have a good argument for being designated as a remote team/employee. I wish you luck.
JohnFen 3y ago
> otherwise, their hybrid days become "video meetings but in a different building". The places that I and my friends worked at pre-pandemic were already like this. Meetings were held via videoconferencing even though everyone was in the office, people mostly interacted with each via chat and email, etc.
- troebr 3y ago
  Same, and it was so dumb. The startup I worked for had an awesome office culture, with snacks, food deliveries, etc. Everybody was in the office unless and people stayed home if they needed to for something. When we got acquired by an older more corporate co, the office was terrible. Nicer looking, but white noise machines, cubicles (roomy and fancy, but still cubicles). The office was out of the way so people started wfh 2 days a week. I was working remotely from the office and ended up asking to go full remote. Also the coffee went from awesome to terrible.
dcow 3y ago
It’s not hybrid vs remote. It’s fully onsite vs fully remote. Hybrid policies are a compromise that aim to give both sides ground, while acknowledging that it’s not the perfect outcome for either. To say “hybrid is forcing me back into the office when I want none of it and screw those people who want to talk to me face to face” is wholly and completely the juvenile response that indicates you truly don't understand the concept of a compromise whatsoever.
- Mountain_Skies 3y ago
  Hybrid, even one day a week, is a compromise that enables the vast majority of what the RTO people want and almost nothing the WFH people want. Dress it up anyway you want, but there's a reason why so many recruiters hide hybrid behind the remote label until very late in the hiring process. Hybrid is simply unable to attract people who want WFH but is a favorite "we gave you 1% and we get 99%" compromise of the forced faux friends camp. No matter how many bottles of pretty sprinkles you put on a turd, it's still a turd.
  - dcow 3y ago
    That’s hyperbolic bullshit. Here I was thinking that WFH people didn't want to commute unnecessarily into the office, be able to work undistracted at home in their flow state, be home to meet the handyman in the afternoon if needed or do an errand that has to happen during business hours, eat lunch with their kids, etc. How does 1 day a week in the office kill all that, exactly? The only thing 1 day a week RTO kills is the “work from Bozeman” camp, which affords zero to people who want to collab in person.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      >How does 1 day a week in the office kill all that, exactly? You missed the "to live wherever the fuck I want" part that it absolutely kills...
      - dcow 3y ago
        > The only thing 1 day a week RTO kills is the “work from Bozeman” camp, which affords zero to people who want to collab in person. No I didn't. That's called a remote job not WFH. If work from wherever the fuck I want is important to you then go work for a remote company or convince the one you work at that your roll can be performed remote, from wherever the fuck you want. Nobody is arguing against that.
watwut 3y ago
Not really. They meet other hybrid employees.

The issue is that the employees that do love hybrid/on-site also have to force everyone else to become hybrid - otherwise, their hybrid days become "video meetings but in a different building".

mym1990 3y ago

No one but management is forcing anyone to do anything. If I do well in person, then as a colleague I need to respect that other people might do well remote, and vice versa.

dcow 3y ago
That’s why hybrid policies represent a compromise. If you’re more than 2 years old you understand the meaning of compromise. Nobody get’s exactly what they want, but the outcome aims to please both sides by offering affordances in both directions.
- p0pcult 3y ago
  [dead]
- mym1990 3y ago
  Where did I say hybrid was not a compromise? If you're more than 5 years old you should be able to read my comment and interpret it correctly.
  - dcow 3y ago
    Sorry that wasn't meant to be directed at you. I was responding to the thread of discussion. I think we agree, and I was just reiterating that because there are two sides people need to compromise. I was also expressing frustration that there are still people chiming in to the tune of "well I want to be at home all day every day and hybrid is bad for me so RTO and anybody who supports it is full of shit" without any ability to, well, compromise.
judge2020 3y ago
Sure, but these hybrid policies aren't just the result of management wanting to see busybodies typing, but people that still bother to come into the office making small talk like "yeah it's always empty" or "that onsite day was nice, wish my team was here more often". They likely still respect everyone's preference, but management needs to keep everyone happy, so hybrid is the compromise and it allows management to justify their multiple-million-dollar commercial real-estate investments.

jvanderbot 3y ago

That hasn't been my experience. Given the option, most the people-needers congregate at work, while the slightly more introverted types work from home. Its not the screens during meetings that bother the extraverted ones, it's the lack of people nearby which sets the temperature of their workday.

MSFT_Edging 3y ago
> it's the lack of people nearby which sets the temperature of their workday. This is what bothers me, why should I lose an hour+ of MY day because some people like the feeling of others around them. I don't get that time back, I don't get the money for the wear and tear on my vehicle, all so someone feels warm and cozy, unrelated to the actual productivity of the work. Employers love to treat employees as numbers, but when employees say "Hey I'm a number, look at my productivity, don't make me participate in these rituals", people act like its childish. I don't owe anything to my employer, because they don't owe me anything except the legal compensation for the work.
- dcow 3y ago
  The argument is that your team’s quality of work, whether you like it or not, suffers without some amount of human interaction. You need to address that, not just parrot the personal preference to be a good little Jira closing productive remote cog and not interact with anybody at all. Not that I don't agree that companies should do a better job understanding individual productivity, but that’s not the argument.
  - 8note 3y ago
    Where's the numbers to support that argument? The jira closer has tickets to point at
    - dcow 3y ago
      Rate of Jira tickets closed does not equate to "quality product". It (optimistically) means "lots of work done". The numbers you're looking for would come from user product feedback and bug reports, but it also comes subjectively from the product owner/leader's assessment of the product's performance. That's the nuance that leadership deals with every day and which we often overlook as good little Jira closing robots.

wbl 3y ago

My boss is in Florida, I am in the bay, most of the rest of the team is in the other bay. We're not having an F2F.

dcow 3y ago
Sounds like you have a good argument for being designated as a remote team/employee. I wish you luck.

JohnFen 3y ago

> otherwise, their hybrid days become "video meetings but in a different building". The places that I and my friends worked at pre-pandemic were already like this. Meetings were held via videoconferencing even though everyone was in the office, people mostly interacted with each via chat and email, etc.

troebr 3y ago
Same, and it was so dumb. The startup I worked for had an awesome office culture, with snacks, food deliveries, etc. Everybody was in the office unless and people stayed home if they needed to for something. When we got acquired by an older more corporate co, the office was terrible. Nicer looking, but white noise machines, cubicles (roomy and fancy, but still cubicles). The office was out of the way so people started wfh 2 days a week. I was working remotely from the office and ended up asking to go full remote. Also the coffee went from awesome to terrible.

dcow 3y ago

It’s not hybrid vs remote. It’s fully onsite vs fully remote. Hybrid policies are a compromise that aim to give both sides ground, while acknowledging that it’s not the perfect outcome for either. To say “hybrid is forcing me back into the office when I want none of it and screw those people who want to talk to me face to face” is wholly and completely the juvenile response that indicates you truly don't understand the concept of a compromise whatsoever.

Mountain_Skies 3y ago
Hybrid, even one day a week, is a compromise that enables the vast majority of what the RTO people want and almost nothing the WFH people want. Dress it up anyway you want, but there's a reason why so many recruiters hide hybrid behind the remote label until very late in the hiring process. Hybrid is simply unable to attract people who want WFH but is a favorite "we gave you 1% and we get 99%" compromise of the forced faux friends camp. No matter how many bottles of pretty sprinkles you put on a turd, it's still a turd.
- dcow 3y ago
  That’s hyperbolic bullshit. Here I was thinking that WFH people didn't want to commute unnecessarily into the office, be able to work undistracted at home in their flow state, be home to meet the handyman in the afternoon if needed or do an errand that has to happen during business hours, eat lunch with their kids, etc. How does 1 day a week in the office kill all that, exactly? The only thing 1 day a week RTO kills is the “work from Bozeman” camp, which affords zero to people who want to collab in person.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >How does 1 day a week in the office kill all that, exactly? You missed the "to live wherever the fuck I want" part that it absolutely kills...
    - dcow 3y ago
      > The only thing 1 day a week RTO kills is the “work from Bozeman” camp, which affords zero to people who want to collab in person. No I didn't. That's called a remote job not WFH. If work from wherever the fuck I want is important to you then go work for a remote company or convince the one you work at that your roll can be performed remote, from wherever the fuck you want. Nobody is arguing against that.

watwut 3y ago

Not really. They meet other hybrid employees.