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France legalizes remote camera and microphone activation in smartphones
- Strongbad536 3y agoDo current smart phones support this? I can't imagine Apple being too keen on allowing this sort of thing. No idea about Android
- kenniskrag 3y agoI recently saw a green dot on the right corner during camera usage on android. Probably a (new) feature of android.
- mankyd 3y agoThe green dot is meant as a privacy indicator - it tells you when something (camera, maybe mic?) is on. It doesn't relate to "remote" activation, and presumably would turn on in all circumstances.
- tpxl 3y agoUnless the light is physically connected to the power line of the camera sensor (and most aren't), it's useless as an indicator of covert camera usage - the spyware can just not turn it on.
- smeej 3y agoNot on Android devices, but wasn't this what Apple said they did for Macbooks? That the light indicates power is going to the camera, and cannot be bypassed?
- RobotToaster 3y agoWhat's infuriating is that it would be trivial to make it linked to the same power supply in hardware. It's obviously done that way on purpose.
- Hamuko 3y agoThe privacy indicator on iPhones is just a green dot on the display. I don't think that's really possible to link to the same power supply. It'd have to be a separate light like on MacBooks. (Thankfully MacBooks do at least physically disconnect the microphones if you close the lid.)
- detaro 3y agoIt could be independent of the OS software if it were a design goal (e.g. in safety-critical applications you sometimes have display controllers that have dedicated hardware layers for important indicators that are driven independently of the main display feed, something Apple could easily replicate given their level of integration) And of course it doesn't have to be on the display, given they already have a cutout island in the display where they could place such a thing.
- yomlica8 3y ago> (Thankfully MacBooks do at least physically disconnect the microphones if you close the lid.) What is the mechanism for this? It seems like this would be a software system.
- Hamuko 3y agohttps://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/security/secbbd20b00b/web https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/security/secbbd20b00b/...
- boringuser2 3y agoThe Apple sycophants really never stop here, do they?
- palunon 3y agoThe bill authorize it using any technical means, specifically mentioning using classified methods («prescrire le recours au moyens de l'État soumis au secret de la défense nationale»)
- tinus_hn 3y agoEven if they don’t support this, this could authorize snoops to hack into your devices so they start supporting it.
- stef25 3y agoZerodium has entered the chat
- activiation 3y agoApple and Google can do remote updates to your device, so they could be forced to implement it if it's not already possible
- codedokode 3y agoApple will be the first to implement this, as history shows.
- activiation 3y agoApple only care about privacy in their speech... They are good politicians.
- gonzo41 3y agoAll that will happen is criminals will just get good at opsec. This is downward selective pressure. Nature will respond.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- donkeyd 3y agoNo, they won't. Also, define criminals. Plenty of crimes are done by people who are not professional criminals who spend money and time on opsec.
- kwyjibo_hunter 3y agoWe’re talking classic bandits that wear eye masks and striped shirts. REAL professionals who’ll stuff all their treasures into a big burlap sack with a dollar sign on it.
- donkeyd 3y agoI doubt those use smart phones.
- lyu07282 3y agos/criminals/protesters there fixed it for you
- stef25 3y agoThey're not that smart. There's been several cases of "secure phone systems" getting breached by the govt who then got access the entire underworld's communications. Why don't they just use Telegram / Whatsapp / Signal? Sure maybe the NSA can get in but afaik they don't bother with mid scale European cocaine importers.
- lancesells 3y agoAm I wrong in thinking that you could bypass Signal / E2E security by having access to the display (screenshots)? Is that a lot less feasible than access to the microphone or camera? Maybe that's much harder at the OS level?
- jgtrosh 3y agoThis is apparently with the approval of a judge (though that's not always meaningful), when targeting crimes that would lead to 10 years imprisonment at least.
- _wolfie_ 3y agoFor now.
- donkeyd 3y agoWire tapping has been approved this way for ages the 'for now' trope is getting old, because in some countries laws do work.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- the_sleaze9 3y agoEdward Snowden is raising his hand, it seems he has something to add to the discussion
- dgan 3y agoWell in France it doesn't: it is enough to attend a green meeting to be labelled & registered by gendarmerie
- hejcloud 3y agoIn Germany they recently had a judge to allow for a swoop on annoying but harmless climate activists, including freezing their bank accounts and confiscating their homepage (in ridiculous ways, bc they only took the server and forgot assuming control over the domain). It was very obvious that the ruling was politically motivated and they treated the climate activists like terrorists. What's alarming is that our governments seem to get more and more repressive.
- dgan 3y agoThe easiest thing to be called nowadays is being a "terrorist", coming just after "nazi"
- cyclecount 3y agoSmart phone makers do not support this in their software (i.e. iOS does not provide some police spy dashboard), but there are many spyware-as-a-service providers like NSO Group (maker of the Pegasus spyware) that buy exploits and build a turnkey surveillance product. This bill simply provides a legal framework for LE to use such tools against French citizens.
- rf15 3y agoThis is probably the real answer - like most countries' attempts to change this kind of law it's about making something they already do legal, not because they want to do it in the future.
- unsupp0rted 3y ago> "[...] which would be reserved for cases of terrorism, delinquency and organized crime." Because of course it will
- willcipriano 3y agoOne of these things is not like the others https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rsRjQDrDnY8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rsRjQDrDnY8
- impyamin 3y agoLel Yeah with our current president you are considered a terrorist threat the moment you shitpost on twitter so no risk at all
- asne11 3y agoIs the gov kicking down doors for shit posters?
- impyamin 3y agoNo it was an exaggeration, but for real though, people are placed in GAV (temporary incarceration) only because they are present during street protest, with the pretext of them being dangerous political opposition so you can guess the possible abuse ps: there has been cases in France of people being sent to prison because of harassment on social networks though
- jacknews 3y agono but you'll be added to the database.
- ZoF 3y agoAh, yes delinquency, there's that umbrella term we were looking for.
- unsupp0rted 3y ago
- sebstefan 3y agoAs far as I know, the title is wrong, only the senate approved the bill. That's not enough for France to legalize anything The way it works in France is there's two chambers of parliament, the senate and the Assemblée nationale (that I translate to "the parliament"). Unless the law changes something in the constitution, the senate is just there to advise the parliament. If they'd voted no, it wouldn't have mattered. It is up to the parliament to vote laws into effect But the neolib right, the far-right and the conservative right compose >60% of the parliament so there's no need to hold your horses too much. For the retirement law, they didn't have the support of the far-right. Since I don't think the far-right is going to suddenly find themselves privacy lovers I think we can safely assume it'll go through
- disposition2 3y agoFor someone who is unfamiliar with French law, is the parliament able to propose legislature (either by advocating in the senate or by pushing up to the senate)? Or do they only determine / vote on what becomes law?
- rjzzleep 3y agoParliament certainly didn't stop Macron from pushing threw the pension reform against the will of virtually everyone. It's a pity that most of the media doesn't cover the legitimate concerns of the french population.
- q87b 3y ago
- dutchbrit 3y agoSo, how do they plan on activating cameras/microphones? Backdoor?
- donkeyd 3y agoHave you heard of hacking? Most police forces have offensive hacking teams by now, it's not much of a secret. Also there are some quite famous tools that aid in this.
- EduardoBautista 3y agoThe camera and microphone of a modern smartphone are not trivial to hack. I highly doubt a local government would have the resources to even consider having such teams.
- donkeyd 3y agoThere's a Dutch TV show that regularly catches African fraudsters by literally using their camera's to take pictures of the fraudsters. Sure, they trick them into installing an app, but that's something LE can do as well. Also, there are tools like Pegasus that pretty much do all the heavy lifting in hacking.
- mordae 3y agoDo they? I can't really imagine anything like that. I would be inclined to believe that they purchase ready-made tools from Israeli/US companies. But hacker teams?
- stef25 3y agoBack to 15$ Nokias I guess
- wkat4242 3y agoWhich come with microphones too. Is S30+ or KaiOS (previously FirefoxOS) which Nokia uses really that much more secure? Also, usability becomes a thing here. Most people don't even use their phone for calls anymore. Not being able to do the other stuff defeats the purpose.
- y-curious 3y agoThere's a reason criminal rings buy crime-suited phones. Buying a cheapo android with the camera removed/disconnected is going to increase in Europe. Once again, I doubt this security measure will make anyone truly safer.
- krzys 3y agoThose privacy-breaching bills are for the safety of the government, not citizens.
- donkeyd 3y agoHaving worked in law enforcement, seeing sentiment like this is just so depressing. On one side it's people saying things like this, while on the other side a large part is complaining about law enforcement not doing enough to combat cyber crime. These things go hand in hand. If criminals can have limitless access to new technologies, but LE gets no new ways of finding criminals using new technologies, we might as well stop with LE all together. Just let criminals do whatever they want without anyone trying to stop them. That's going to be awesome! Edit: The down votes were expected, but next to clicking that button I'd love an actual response of how people think things will turn out of criminals get the power of technology and LE gets nothing.
- mordae 3y agoI wouldn't be concerned about LE getting more power if I've not witnessed the scale of public sector corruption and collusion with capitalists. LE is getting exactly zero more powers from me until I see specific people I've met end up in jail for the crimes they did, for which there is plenty of LE powers available. Until then sorry, not sorry. You are not wasting my freedoms and resources on monitoring the populace to ensure the criminals stay in power. I would be perfectly happy with defunding police to provide more resources to people who actually care for addicts and homeless, trying to rehabilitate them. That's for the petty crime. I would also accept less policemen in the streets if it meant policemen with actual tech knowledge investigating while collar crime. Also, legalize all the drugs (with proper regulation) and lay off everyone who wastes my money on stopping their proliferation. Instead start taking care of people who use them (and everybody else, for that matter). Hint: it's usually the socioeconomic background that drives people to use. (I am EU based.)
- cm-t 3y agoC'est vraiment n'importe quoi...
- ChatGTP 3y agoNice, we now have "telescreens"?
- activiation 3y agoWe are past 1984... They are being a bit more subtle about it.
- ChatGTP 3y ago2084 :)
- activiation 3y agoWe are due for a new sci-fi movie/book for sure
- jacknews 3y agofrance .. surveillance .. alcatel .. backdoor
- alex14fr 3y agoAnd on the same day, what a coincidence, a Syrian illegal "migrant" stabs 8 children in a park...
- thomasingalls 3y agoWhat exactly are you trying to imply with this comment?
- dgan 3y agonot OP, but maybe he implies the attack was instrumented to make the bill pass.
- awwaiid 3y agoI guess one idea is that you could turn on video/audio/location broadcast and live stream it to some website all the time, 24x7. Now you are in the proper mindset of how to treat your device.
- PrimeMcFly 3y agoI understand that the headline is wrong, but it doesn't matter, because one day it might not be. I need to have a phone that can protect against this, because it doesn't matter if it's a state doing it with a warrant or a talented hacker - either case is unacceptable to me. So far a FairPhone running DivestOS and only trusted software via F-Droid is the best solution I have found. GrapheneOS on a Pixel is nice, but I don't want Google hardware if I'm not trusting their software.
- nforgerit 3y agoCan't help but think that our governments are prepping for very harsh times coming up. Sorry for the pessimistic view, but this is what it looks like to me.