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> - Implement Green New Deal but add a metric tonne of taxpayers money to support Hidrogen because Shell says so Hydrogen is pretty much the main hope for trul

by sofixa 3y ago

> - Implement Green New Deal but add a metric tonne of taxpayers money to support Hidrogen because Shell says so Hydrogen is pretty much the main hope for truly carbon neutral replacement of industry use of natural gas (huge in Germany for instance). Long range transportation could also probably use it - modern day batteries are simply impossible to use on e.g. medium and up range aircraft. It's not simply a "because Shell said so thing". France is also investing massively in hydrogen, in multiple local companies Shell has nothing to do with. > - Start a Ban on ICEs but then push it back another 15 years because Exxon says so I'm fairly sure the ban on new ICEs is for so out in the future because it's simply impossible to replace all automobile manufacturing capacity much quicker; and if anyone is lobbying against it (do Exxon even do business in the EU??), it's existing EU-based manufacturers that have to retool their entire supply chains to produce EVs. Most are on their way, but EVs are still a small part of their portfolio and manufacturing capacity. Not to mention the drastic loss of employment that will come. It's just not something you can do with short notice.

MagnumOpus 3y ago
> do Exxon even do business in the EU Not sure if you are joking... Even if you don't have an Esso petrol pump within a few minutes' drive unlike the majority of Europeans, in their own words "We are one of Europe’s largest oil and gas producers, a major refiner of crude oil for fuels and lubricants, and one of Europe’s leading petrochemical companies"
- tough 3y ago
  They have a pretty big shop on rotterdam https://www.exxonmobil.be/en-be/company/locations/netherlands https://www.exxonmobil.be/en-be/company/locations/netherland...
- NikkiA 3y ago
  And in the bits where there's no Esso, you'll likely find them hiding as Mobil.
scns 3y ago
> Hydrogen is pretty much the main hope for truly carbon neutral replacement of industry use of natural gas (huge in Germany for instance). Long range transportation could also probably use it In Switzerland the three big wholesalers got together and switched their whole truck fleet to hydrogen. They have the foresight to invest their money well.
- jksk61 3y ago
  using hydrogen for transportation is the same as saying you ate healthy because you ordered a salad at Mcdonald.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    A salad in McDonalds is infinitely healthier than a large burger with fat sauce, lots of fries and a big sugary drink; in the same way that hydrogen, depending on how it's produced, could be infinitely better more eco-friendly than natural gas.
    - jksk61 3y ago
      Yes, but there are also better restaurant you can go to, so why wasting money, time and your taste to eat a mcdonald salad?
  - scns 3y ago
    You can produce hydrogen with surplus electricity generated from wind power. Can it get any greener? In Germany Greenpeace Energy creates Methane this way and adds it to natural gas. Hydrogen would be much better IMO. Feeding wind energy to the grid was stopped for a while because there was so much of it and nuclear reactors run when they do. There is a lot of potential to be tapped.
    - jksk61 3y ago
      what you are missing is: 1. Keeping the hydrogen at high pressure requires a lot of energy. 2. Hydrogen produces H2O in gas form, which in itself it is still a greenhouse gas. 3. True, hydrogen can be produced by "green" technologies, but what is the energy lost throughout the procedure? It is quite a loss (about 20%). Moreover, it is theoretically viable to produce all electric energy via renewables, albeit impracticle and 100 years away. Thus, I can't see how saying that """EVENTUALLY""" hydrogen might be renewable is good for the environment. Hydrogen is good for a very niche part of our production system (and spoiler it is not car industry or house heating where better alternatives already exist[1][2]). [1] https://spectrum.ieee.org/home-heating-with-hydrogen-is-ill-advised#toggle-gdpr https://spectrum.ieee.org/home-heating-with-hydrogen-is-ill-... [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41928-021-00706-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41928-021-00706-6
nradov 3y ago
For aviation at least I doubt that hydrogen is going to be viable due to issues with fuel volume, storage, handling, and embrittlement. I expect batteries to be used for short flights and carbon-neutral synthetic kerosene to be used for long flights.
Szpadel 3y ago
EV production is one thing, other is charging. I would love to invest in EV but in many EU countries there is basically no public charging infrastructure. and if you live in apartment there is usually no way to charge at home.

by sofixa 3y ago

MagnumOpus 3y ago

> do Exxon even do business in the EU Not sure if you are joking... Even if you don't have an Esso petrol pump within a few minutes' drive unlike the majority of Europeans, in their own words "We are one of Europe’s largest oil and gas producers, a major refiner of crude oil for fuels and lubricants, and one of Europe’s leading petrochemical companies"

tough 3y ago
They have a pretty big shop on rotterdam https://www.exxonmobil.be/en-be/company/locations/netherlands https://www.exxonmobil.be/en-be/company/locations/netherland...
NikkiA 3y ago
And in the bits where there's no Esso, you'll likely find them hiding as Mobil.

scns 3y ago

> Hydrogen is pretty much the main hope for truly carbon neutral replacement of industry use of natural gas (huge in Germany for instance). Long range transportation could also probably use it In Switzerland the three big wholesalers got together and switched their whole truck fleet to hydrogen. They have the foresight to invest their money well.

jksk61 3y ago
using hydrogen for transportation is the same as saying you ate healthy because you ordered a salad at Mcdonald.
- sofixa 3y ago
  A salad in McDonalds is infinitely healthier than a large burger with fat sauce, lots of fries and a big sugary drink; in the same way that hydrogen, depending on how it's produced, could be infinitely better more eco-friendly than natural gas.
  - jksk61 3y ago
    Yes, but there are also better restaurant you can go to, so why wasting money, time and your taste to eat a mcdonald salad?
- scns 3y ago
  You can produce hydrogen with surplus electricity generated from wind power. Can it get any greener? In Germany Greenpeace Energy creates Methane this way and adds it to natural gas. Hydrogen would be much better IMO. Feeding wind energy to the grid was stopped for a while because there was so much of it and nuclear reactors run when they do. There is a lot of potential to be tapped.
  - jksk61 3y ago
    what you are missing is: 1. Keeping the hydrogen at high pressure requires a lot of energy. 2. Hydrogen produces H2O in gas form, which in itself it is still a greenhouse gas. 3. True, hydrogen can be produced by "green" technologies, but what is the energy lost throughout the procedure? It is quite a loss (about 20%). Moreover, it is theoretically viable to produce all electric energy via renewables, albeit impracticle and 100 years away. Thus, I can't see how saying that """EVENTUALLY""" hydrogen might be renewable is good for the environment. Hydrogen is good for a very niche part of our production system (and spoiler it is not car industry or house heating where better alternatives already exist[1][2]). [1] https://spectrum.ieee.org/home-heating-with-hydrogen-is-ill-advised#toggle-gdpr https://spectrum.ieee.org/home-heating-with-hydrogen-is-ill-... [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41928-021-00706-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41928-021-00706-6

nradov 3y ago

For aviation at least I doubt that hydrogen is going to be viable due to issues with fuel volume, storage, handling, and embrittlement. I expect batteries to be used for short flights and carbon-neutral synthetic kerosene to be used for long flights.

Szpadel 3y ago

EV production is one thing, other is charging. I would love to invest in EV but in many EU countries there is basically no public charging infrastructure. and if you live in apartment there is usually no way to charge at home.