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Related: Reddit is creating an exemption to its unpopular new API pricing terms for makers of accessibility apps, which could come as a big relief for some dev

by timf 3y ago

Related: Reddit is creating an exemption to its unpopular new API pricing terms for makers of accessibility apps, which could come as a big relief for some developers worried about how to afford the potentially expensive fees and the users that rely on the apps to browse Reddit. As long as those apps are noncommercial and “address accessibility needs,” they won’t have to pay to access Reddit’s data. “We’ve connected with select developers of non-commercial apps that address accessibility needs and offered them exemptions from our large-scale pricing terms,” Reddit spokesperson Tim Rathschmidt says in a statement to The Verge. From https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/7/23752804/reddit-exempt-accessibility-apps-api-pricing-changes https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/7/23752804/reddit-exempt-acc...

digging 3y ago
So if reddit's official app is difficult to use, at what point can regular 3rd party apps claim to be accessibility tools?
- cwkoss 3y ago
  Society needs 'allergic to UX dark patterns' to be included in the next DSM
  - nerpderp82 3y ago
    There needs to be a preferences setting sent in the HTTP header to activate high contrast and low motion modes. Just having "dark mode" is not enough.
    - chaosharmonic 3y ago
      Would high contrast not be a CSS thing? I know `prefers-reduced-motion` is...
      - notatoad 3y ago
        yes, high-contrast is a CSS media query just like prefers-reduced-motion is
        extra88 3y ago
        * prefers-contrast: more
    - digging 3y ago
      I agree, but I think you misread the comment you're replying to. They were referring to "dark patterns," a design feature used to trick users into taking actions they otherwise wouldn't. Much harder to flag :P
      - nerpderp82 3y ago
        Sorry, I want all dark patterns to be surrounded by a high contrast "dark pattern border".
        digging 3y ago
        this is what the internet was meant to be
  - MrStonedOne 3y ago
    Some of those UX dark patterns would qualify as making the site inaccessible to people with add and adhd, others make it inaccessible to people with autism. engagement driving bullshit could very easy become banned under ADA if the right public servant gave it enough thought.
    - digging 3y ago
      I actually completely agree with this, but I didn't bring that up specifically because, as an autistic person with ADHD, I have gotten pretty poor responses in the past from saying my needs should be considered by UI/UX designers. There's not a lot of public will to consider autism and ADHD to be "real" disabilities and I'd love to see that change.
- hoherd 3y ago
  It sounds like being accessibility tools wouldn't be enough because they would also need to be non-commercial, which excludes most of (all of?) the popular third party apps.
  - goda90 3y ago
    RedReader is entirely open source and has accessibility features.
thorum 3y ago
Separate “accessibility” apps for people with disabilities always lag behind in features compared to apps that target a wider audience while still being accessible. Basically relegating people with disabilities to a second class experience.
jacobsenscott 3y ago
Translation - if we can exploit your free labor we'll allow it. Otherwise get bent.
mustacheemperor 3y ago
On the other hand, quoth the OP thread >One of our moderators, u/itsthejoker, has had multiple hour-long calls with various Reddit employees. However, as of the current time, our concerns have gone unheard, and Reddit remains firm. Doublespeak from reddit's management is not exactly uncommon, and it seems like something is mismatched between what they communicated in that article and what's related in the thread.
- tedivm 3y ago
  The AskHistorian's mods put together a small list of reddit admin promises to moderators that were broken: Admins have promised minimal disruption; however, over the years they’ve made a number of promises to support moderators that they did not, or could not follow up on, and at times even reneged on: In 2015, in response to widespread protests on the sub, the admins promised they would build tools and improve communication with mods. In 2019 the admins promised that chat would always be an opt-in feature. However, a year later an unmoderated chat feature was made a default feature on most subs In 2020, in response to moderators protesting racism on Reddit, admin promised to support mods in combating hate In 2021, again, in response to protests, Reddit’s admin promised a feature to report malicious interference by subreddits promoting Covid denial.
  - flangola7 3y ago
    That really is just shameful. I feel dishonest telling white lies to strangers to make a 3 minute interaction easier.
kmeisthax 3y ago
>noncommercial This is a water sandwich. There is no unambiguous single definition of commercial activity in the law: some parts of the law define it one way, some jurisdictions differ as to what is and isn't commercial, and some parts of the law explicitly deny the existence of noncommercial activity (e.g. copyright law). So Reddit has promised literally nothing here. Furthermore, their explicit goal is to prevent scraping by ML training companies. This is inherently opposed to accessibility. If you add accessibility to copy protection, you weaken the copy protection[0]. So Reddit can either tell blind people to go fuck themselves, or they can accept that there's always going to be at least some backdoor for AI to scrape Reddit. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd.
- no_butterscotch 3y ago
  Yup. Whatever blind dev is making a living providing an app (or other software) as an accessibility layer for the blind over reddit will now have to potentially do so for free.
  - travisjungroth 3y ago
    The hypocrisy of companies that live on user content is pretty amazing. They want to act like we’re all just vibing. And then hey, really sorry, we gotta put a few ads up to keep the servers up and pay the devs ($424mm worth last year). But you wanna get paid for making an app for blind people to use our site? Helllll no.
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    Or provide a set of steps to generate a client ID and secret to put into their app, right?
- ncr100 3y ago
  .. And how can a developer not charge for their specialty-app? Reddit is requiring Disabled to use an app developed at the LOWEST COST - this is clear discrimination, in the legal sense. It may not be illegal, but legally they are "discriminating", based upon the legal usage of that word.

by timf 3y ago

digging 3y ago

So if reddit's official app is difficult to use, at what point can regular 3rd party apps claim to be accessibility tools?

cwkoss 3y ago
Society needs 'allergic to UX dark patterns' to be included in the next DSM
- nerpderp82 3y ago
  There needs to be a preferences setting sent in the HTTP header to activate high contrast and low motion modes. Just having "dark mode" is not enough.
  - chaosharmonic 3y ago
    Would high contrast not be a CSS thing? I know `prefers-reduced-motion` is...
    - notatoad 3y ago
      yes, high-contrast is a CSS media query just like prefers-reduced-motion is
      - extra88 3y ago
        * prefers-contrast: more
  - digging 3y ago
    I agree, but I think you misread the comment you're replying to. They were referring to "dark patterns," a design feature used to trick users into taking actions they otherwise wouldn't. Much harder to flag :P
    - nerpderp82 3y ago
      Sorry, I want all dark patterns to be surrounded by a high contrast "dark pattern border".
      - digging 3y ago
        this is what the internet was meant to be
- MrStonedOne 3y ago
  Some of those UX dark patterns would qualify as making the site inaccessible to people with add and adhd, others make it inaccessible to people with autism. engagement driving bullshit could very easy become banned under ADA if the right public servant gave it enough thought.
  - digging 3y ago
    I actually completely agree with this, but I didn't bring that up specifically because, as an autistic person with ADHD, I have gotten pretty poor responses in the past from saying my needs should be considered by UI/UX designers. There's not a lot of public will to consider autism and ADHD to be "real" disabilities and I'd love to see that change.
hoherd 3y ago
It sounds like being accessibility tools wouldn't be enough because they would also need to be non-commercial, which excludes most of (all of?) the popular third party apps.
- goda90 3y ago
  RedReader is entirely open source and has accessibility features.

thorum 3y ago

Separate “accessibility” apps for people with disabilities always lag behind in features compared to apps that target a wider audience while still being accessible. Basically relegating people with disabilities to a second class experience.

jacobsenscott 3y ago

Translation - if we can exploit your free labor we'll allow it. Otherwise get bent.

mustacheemperor 3y ago

On the other hand, quoth the OP thread >One of our moderators, u/itsthejoker, has had multiple hour-long calls with various Reddit employees. However, as of the current time, our concerns have gone unheard, and Reddit remains firm. Doublespeak from reddit's management is not exactly uncommon, and it seems like something is mismatched between what they communicated in that article and what's related in the thread.

tedivm 3y ago
The AskHistorian's mods put together a small list of reddit admin promises to moderators that were broken: Admins have promised minimal disruption; however, over the years they’ve made a number of promises to support moderators that they did not, or could not follow up on, and at times even reneged on: In 2015, in response to widespread protests on the sub, the admins promised they would build tools and improve communication with mods. In 2019 the admins promised that chat would always be an opt-in feature. However, a year later an unmoderated chat feature was made a default feature on most subs In 2020, in response to moderators protesting racism on Reddit, admin promised to support mods in combating hate In 2021, again, in response to protests, Reddit’s admin promised a feature to report malicious interference by subreddits promoting Covid denial.
- flangola7 3y ago
  That really is just shameful. I feel dishonest telling white lies to strangers to make a 3 minute interaction easier.

kmeisthax 3y ago

>noncommercial This is a water sandwich. There is no unambiguous single definition of commercial activity in the law: some parts of the law define it one way, some jurisdictions differ as to what is and isn't commercial, and some parts of the law explicitly deny the existence of noncommercial activity (e.g. copyright law). So Reddit has promised literally nothing here. Furthermore, their explicit goal is to prevent scraping by ML training companies. This is inherently opposed to accessibility. If you add accessibility to copy protection, you weaken the copy protection[0]. So Reddit can either tell blind people to go fuck themselves, or they can accept that there's always going to be at least some backdoor for AI to scrape Reddit. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd.

no_butterscotch 3y ago
Yup. Whatever blind dev is making a living providing an app (or other software) as an accessibility layer for the blind over reddit will now have to potentially do so for free.
- travisjungroth 3y ago
  The hypocrisy of companies that live on user content is pretty amazing. They want to act like we’re all just vibing. And then hey, really sorry, we gotta put a few ads up to keep the servers up and pay the devs ($424mm worth last year). But you wanna get paid for making an app for blind people to use our site? Helllll no.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  Or provide a set of steps to generate a client ID and secret to put into their app, right?
ncr100 3y ago
.. And how can a developer not charge for their specialty-app? Reddit is requiring Disabled to use an app developed at the LOWEST COST - this is clear discrimination, in the legal sense. It may not be illegal, but legally they are "discriminating", based upon the legal usage of that word.