5 ms·

EInk Screen Acts Nearly Like An LCD Screen

50 points by mikecane 15y ago

jonny_eh 15y ago
My Kobo Touch, released last year, can do the same stuff. What's so special about not refreshing an eink display?
gojomo 15y ago
Not too shabby. I could get used to the lag and flashing, in return for visibility in sunlight. Any idea if this ruins screen lifetime or brings battery life to even worse than LCD (with so many repaints)?
- gnarbarian 15y ago
  it would wreck your battery life because the life of the battery is almost directly tied to the number of screen refreshes.
warfangle 15y ago
This looks absolutely terrible compared to some electrowetting technologies (e.g., http://www.pixelqi.com/ http://www.pixelqi.com/ )
- URSpider94 15y ago
  Pixel Qi is not electrowetting, it's LCD.
corysama 15y ago
I wonder why it's so slow sometimes and so fast others. Also, where the `ell are the Pixel Qi readers? The B&W mode on the original OLPC is like a LCD pretty effectively emulating eInk as opposed to this case of eInk trying to catch up to an LCD.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  My guesses: - Some of the delay is access time. The system is not built for speed, so loading data the first time causes a hit. - Renderings that require fewer "pixels" to flip colors are faster, IIRC, and it becomes easier to get away with weak partial refreshes as well. (A full refresh involves blanking the screen black or white first; if you don't, it will eventually start ghosting until a full refresh is performed)
- polshaw 15y ago
  As the linked XDA developers thread explains, this is showing both 'normal' and fast-refresh mode. So the times when it is fast are the point of this video.
cbr 15y ago
It's all about low expectations. If I didn't know how hard it is to do this with e-ink that video would have made me think "man, that tablet sucks!".
joejohnson 15y ago
Wow, that looks awful. I'm sure it's terrible for battery life, too, so why not just use a screen that's designed to be more than static paper? I guess this is kind of clever... what will be really amazing is when LCD/eInk hybrid screens become a reality.
- replax 15y ago
  You may want to take a look at PixelQi Displays, they already built a hybrid. It is not perfect by all means, but it gets really close. There is a tablet based on it as well, the NotionInk Adam [1]. [1] www.notionink.com
  - joejohnson 15y ago
    That's kind of cool, thanks.
zzzmarcus 15y ago
It's hard to tell from the video, but he's showing both before and after the hack. Each time he switches to a new activity he shows the normal mode with full refreshes every time anything happens, then he taps the screen four times on the right side of the screen and it switches to the higher refresh rate where animation looks significantly better.
- joshu 15y ago
  He switches at :24, for those that closed the window the first time.
redthrowaway 15y ago
This reminds me of my dad's old 486 laptop with monochrome monitor and ridiculously slow refresh rates. To get this out of e-ink, a technology designed for static text and images, is pretty damned cool.
antimatter15 15y ago
This is a bit off topic but my Kindle Touch makes a high pitched squeal every time the E-Ink display updates (It sounds sort of like a muffled hard drive seeking). It's only possible to notice when it's really really quiet, and it might be high enough that adults can't hear it. I've been wondering if this is specifically a Kindle thing or an E-ink thing in general, and if the screen didn't refresh the noise might become extremely irritating if used in a quiet setting.
- mbell 15y ago
  most likely a ceramic capacitor in the display power circuit (piezoelectric effect).
staunch 15y ago
EInk is screwed right? Am I right in thinking that its only advantages are superfluous readability and battery life?
- chops 15y ago
  I'd say those are pretty significant advantages for someone who wants to use it as a reading-only device. It's nice to take the kindle on vacation and read out on the pier in ultra-bright sunlight and charge it exactly never.
- noveltyaccount 15y ago
  It's a matter of taste, as evidenced by the success of both eInk and LCD devices on the market. For me personally, I think the improved readability is well beyond superfluous: I regularly bring my Kindle to the beach and read in direct sunlight, a feat that's not possible with other display tech right now. Plus I can bring an eInk device with me on holiday and not worry about charging it or even packing a charger is a win in convenience. Someone pinch me when PixelQi becomes mainstream, or Samsung does something with their Liquavista purchase, or maybe when Mirasol shows up in the market.
  - jonhendry 15y ago
    Everything I've seen of Mirasol makes it look like the colors are really washed out. Reminds me a bit of Polaroid transfers: http://media.lawrence.com/img/croppedphotos/2008/08/23/psu_behind_lens_polaroid_th_t640.jpg?a6ea3ebd4438a44b86d2e9c39ecf7613005fe067 http://media.lawrence.com/img/croppedphotos/2008/08/23/psu_b...
- jrockway 15y ago
  Readability is a pretty big advantage. I don't understand why we need color computer screens anyway. I'd much rather have 3x the resolution than 32 million colors. (Have you ever printed source code with a2ps? Much easier on the eyes than color-based syntax highlighting, but still gives you as much information.) That said, I will immediately buy the next Kindle if it refreshes more quickly. The current update time is fine, but it could be better.
polshaw 15y ago
This is potentially fantastic. But what i'd really like to know is how does this affect the battery life-- how much more power efficient (if at all) is it than an LCD when you are scrolling or such??
ekianjo 15y ago
I wonder why we still use the same old E-ink technology on the market right now. There are a number of other technologies (Mirasol, Liquavista, and more) which are better in terms of contrast, refresh rates and all. It could be all linked to pricing: if nobody is ready to pay for a e-reader costing more than xxx dollars, maybe we will be stuck with E-ink for a long time. It may be "Ok" for some people, but for me e-ink has a far too low resolution to be attractive enough to replace paper.

50 points by mikecane 15y ago

My Kobo Touch, released last year, can do the same stuff. What's so special about not refreshing an eink display?

Not too shabby. I could get used to the lag and flashing, in return for visibility in sunlight. Any idea if this ruins screen lifetime or brings battery life to even worse than LCD (with so many repaints)?

gnarbarian 15y ago
it would wreck your battery life because the life of the battery is almost directly tied to the number of screen refreshes.

warfangle 15y ago

This looks absolutely terrible compared to some electrowetting technologies (e.g., http://www.pixelqi.com/ http://www.pixelqi.com/ )

URSpider94 15y ago
Pixel Qi is not electrowetting, it's LCD.

corysama 15y ago

I wonder why it's so slow sometimes and so fast others. Also, where the `ell are the Pixel Qi readers? The B&W mode on the original OLPC is like a LCD pretty effectively emulating eInk as opposed to this case of eInk trying to catch up to an LCD.

sliverstorm 15y ago
My guesses: - Some of the delay is access time. The system is not built for speed, so loading data the first time causes a hit. - Renderings that require fewer "pixels" to flip colors are faster, IIRC, and it becomes easier to get away with weak partial refreshes as well. (A full refresh involves blanking the screen black or white first; if you don't, it will eventually start ghosting until a full refresh is performed)
polshaw 15y ago
As the linked XDA developers thread explains, this is showing both 'normal' and fast-refresh mode. So the times when it is fast are the point of this video.

cbr 15y ago

It's all about low expectations. If I didn't know how hard it is to do this with e-ink that video would have made me think "man, that tablet sucks!".

joejohnson 15y ago

Wow, that looks awful. I'm sure it's terrible for battery life, too, so why not just use a screen that's designed to be more than static paper? I guess this is kind of clever... what will be really amazing is when LCD/eInk hybrid screens become a reality.

replax 15y ago
You may want to take a look at PixelQi Displays, they already built a hybrid. It is not perfect by all means, but it gets really close. There is a tablet based on it as well, the NotionInk Adam [1]. [1] www.notionink.com
- joejohnson 15y ago
  That's kind of cool, thanks.

zzzmarcus 15y ago

It's hard to tell from the video, but he's showing both before and after the hack. Each time he switches to a new activity he shows the normal mode with full refreshes every time anything happens, then he taps the screen four times on the right side of the screen and it switches to the higher refresh rate where animation looks significantly better.

joshu 15y ago
He switches at :24, for those that closed the window the first time.

redthrowaway 15y ago

This reminds me of my dad's old 486 laptop with monochrome monitor and ridiculously slow refresh rates. To get this out of e-ink, a technology designed for static text and images, is pretty damned cool.

antimatter15 15y ago

This is a bit off topic but my Kindle Touch makes a high pitched squeal every time the E-Ink display updates (It sounds sort of like a muffled hard drive seeking). It's only possible to notice when it's really really quiet, and it might be high enough that adults can't hear it. I've been wondering if this is specifically a Kindle thing or an E-ink thing in general, and if the screen didn't refresh the noise might become extremely irritating if used in a quiet setting.

mbell 15y ago
most likely a ceramic capacitor in the display power circuit (piezoelectric effect).

staunch 15y ago

EInk is screwed right? Am I right in thinking that its only advantages are superfluous readability and battery life?

chops 15y ago
I'd say those are pretty significant advantages for someone who wants to use it as a reading-only device. It's nice to take the kindle on vacation and read out on the pier in ultra-bright sunlight and charge it exactly never.
noveltyaccount 15y ago
It's a matter of taste, as evidenced by the success of both eInk and LCD devices on the market. For me personally, I think the improved readability is well beyond superfluous: I regularly bring my Kindle to the beach and read in direct sunlight, a feat that's not possible with other display tech right now. Plus I can bring an eInk device with me on holiday and not worry about charging it or even packing a charger is a win in convenience. Someone pinch me when PixelQi becomes mainstream, or Samsung does something with their Liquavista purchase, or maybe when Mirasol shows up in the market.
- jonhendry 15y ago
  Everything I've seen of Mirasol makes it look like the colors are really washed out. Reminds me a bit of Polaroid transfers: http://media.lawrence.com/img/croppedphotos/2008/08/23/psu_behind_lens_polaroid_th_t640.jpg?a6ea3ebd4438a44b86d2e9c39ecf7613005fe067 http://media.lawrence.com/img/croppedphotos/2008/08/23/psu_b...
jrockway 15y ago
Readability is a pretty big advantage. I don't understand why we need color computer screens anyway. I'd much rather have 3x the resolution than 32 million colors. (Have you ever printed source code with a2ps? Much easier on the eyes than color-based syntax highlighting, but still gives you as much information.) That said, I will immediately buy the next Kindle if it refreshes more quickly. The current update time is fine, but it could be better.

polshaw 15y ago

This is potentially fantastic. But what i'd really like to know is how does this affect the battery life-- how much more power efficient (if at all) is it than an LCD when you are scrolling or such??

ekianjo 15y ago

I wonder why we still use the same old E-ink technology on the market right now. There are a number of other technologies (Mirasol, Liquavista, and more) which are better in terms of contrast, refresh rates and all. It could be all linked to pricing: if nobody is ready to pay for a e-reader costing more than xxx dollars, maybe we will be stuck with E-ink for a long time. It may be "Ok" for some people, but for me e-ink has a far too low resolution to be attractive enough to replace paper.