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Alright HN, we all know that this is likely untrue, from a rational angle, and this thread is full of reasons why, but play this mental exercise with me for a m

Alright HN, we all know that this is likely untrue, from a rational angle, and this thread is full of reasons why, but play this mental exercise with me for a minute: What if its true? What repercussions would having alien technology have on civilization? Would this fundamentally change beliefs? Influence religion? EDIT: someone pointed out to make this more stimulating we need constrains, assuming the following is true: The UFO is likely "rogue" in that it was off course, pilot dead, and we are not currently engaged in hostilities with this other civilization

nopal 3y ago
Geopolitical Implications of a Successful SETI Program https://arxiv.org/abs/2209.15125 https://arxiv.org/abs/2209.15125
curiousllama 3y ago
There’s literally billions of words written about this - they’re called sci-fi novels. For this to be an interesting question, you need to specify what exactly is true - then we can game implications. Are we positing that aliens exist? That FTL/time travel is possible? That aliens are attacking, like right now?
- goodells 3y ago
  Some unsolicited recommendations for sci-fi novels that cover this topic well: - "The Mote in God's Eye" by Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven (1974) - "A Fire Upon The Deep" by Vernor Vinge (1992)
nonethewiser 3y ago
It would unify earth in previously impossible ways.
elboru 3y ago
If you are curious about how Christianity in particular would need to react you could read CS Lewis’ essay “Religion and Rocketry”. We Christians would need to answer these questions: 1. Are there animals anywhere else besides earth? 2. If yes, do any of these animals have what we call ‘rational souls’? That is, are they spiritual beings? 3. If there are such spiritual beings, are any or all of them, like us, fallen? 4. If any of them have fallen, have they been denied Redemption by the Incarnation and Passion of Christ? Christ could have come to those worlds also. 5. Finally, if all of the first four questions could be answered yes, is it certain that this is the only possible mode of Redemption? https://www.cslewis.com/religion-and-rocketry/ https://www.cslewis.com/religion-and-rocketry/
- 9dev 3y ago
  I never got why the interpretation of „world“ christians choose is so narrow; why can’t it describe the galaxy, or universe? What if the genesis revolves around beings on other planets as parts of the same world?
- abrenuntio 3y ago
  This is a pretty wild but fun topic :-) Saint Augustine discussed a colorful rumour from his time about dog-headed people (cynocephaly). If you look beyond the actual rumour itself, his thinking provides a useful precedent for contemporary Christians to frame discussions about alien intelligence. (If I remember correctly...) Augustine's thinking went something like this: if dog-headed people exist, then the question becomes whether they are descendants of Adam or not. (See the protoevangelium in Gn 3:15; or the genealogy in Lk 3:38; or the Catechism paragraph 402 and surrounding paragraphs on the Fall.) If they are, then they are in need of salvation: the Gospel should be proclaimed to them and presumably they should also receive the Sacraments. If they are not, given that Adam is our actual ancestor, then we might need additional revelation, because no revelation about this was provided to begin with (Jn 10:16 is taken to be a reference to non-Jewish peoples, who are also descendants of Adam and who would also end up worshiping the God of Israel by the sacrifice of the Cross, as predicted in the Old Testament). I'd say this need for extra revelation would become even more pressing in the case of supposed intelligent life that is extra-terrestrial and, despite its rationality, fundamentally does not share in human nature and the Fall. My intuition (as a Catholic) is therefore that we will never encounter extra-terrestrial intelligence. Or if its existence is proven, then we would only learn about it from distant observations, e.g. through the SETI program, but we would never have meaningful interactions with it/them. So far, actual evidence lines up with this more skeptical attitude inspired by the Christian faith: consider the Fermi paradox; or the vast size of the universe and our current understanding of challenges related to faster-than-light travel; or the questionable nature of the existing reports, together with very pragmatic but pressing questions like "why on earth would such advanced aliens secretly buzz around on Earth in highly advanced aircraft and still crash"... The interesting twist (...imho...) is this: "extra terrestrial intelligence", aside from scientific debates about e.g. likelihood and discovery, also serves a cultural purpose. It is one way in which today's non-Christian society tries to think about what "it" might become. This is not unlike how thinking about angels provides Christians with a view of what they may become individually in relation to free will, moral choices and God, things which in angels are completely pure because they are immaterial creatures. The irony is that the reality of extra-terrestrial intelligence is completely unproven and its nature is therefore a matter of pure speculation and fantasy; whereas immaterial spirits actually do exist and we have some knowledge about them, expressed in solid metaphysical concepts.
motohagiography 3y ago
It could be polarizing, where from a religious perspective, other life doesn't break anything and is more evidence of the divine. From a political perspective, it is risky because all our current rules are based on a now-obsolete ontology, nothing needs preservation, we are just animals again, all is material. It creates a power vacuum that some people will rush into. The rationale for that would be, if you don't have to fear the aliens, and we're tiny specs in the universe, why should you fear other men? We are now one species and if you can't get on board with that, there are no moral consequences to shortening your time here, since as we are not the top of the pyramid, we can no longer be held morally responsible to each other - there is only this new power. If it doesn't control us, nothing does, etc. I think the religious view would be that they must also know God, and the only way you can trust another species enough to relate to it is either it accepts your dominion, or recognizes some similar principles of divine authority. Someone who has a personal relationship with God is perfectly equipped to relate to other beings as best a human can, whereas without that, they'd have to worry about you stealing stuff.
mustacheemperor 3y ago
I’m curious to speculate on the most boring possible outcome. Let’s say there is wreckage, from an unmanned craft like a sensing probe dispatched at some unknown time in the past by an unknown creator, including potentially millions of years ago by a species that’s long extinct. There would be a clamor for private business and the general public to get research access, but maybe there’s very little we can actually learn yet. It could be possible these craft reached this solar system very slowly, with no sci-fi FTL propulsion. One way or another there would be a finite amount to glean, and other than any technological benefits how much would it really change life? Organized religion has proven resilient - I honestly doubt the revelation that there was at some point intelligent life distantly far away in the universe would upset their apple cart too much.
dan_mctree 3y ago
Imo the most likely scenario if it's true, is that these are automated von Neumann probes that traveled here without faster than light propulsion and that they're here merely to explore, observe or possibly self-replicate. I believe this is the most likely option because it takes just one successful civilization in our galaxy, or even a close one, that employs this strategy. Crafts made deliberately to meet us would have to originate from much closer civilizations unless the civilization has both FTL travel and much more sensitive and high resolution observation technology than we currently believe possible. Supposing it is a von Neumann probe. There may be a planet or nearby system where these crafts are being built, but we're unlikely to be near the main star/region of the civilization. We might be stuck with just handful of these crafts for probably many (hundreds?) of thousands of years before any real first contact happens.

nopal 3y ago

Geopolitical Implications of a Successful SETI Program https://arxiv.org/abs/2209.15125 https://arxiv.org/abs/2209.15125

curiousllama 3y ago

There’s literally billions of words written about this - they’re called sci-fi novels. For this to be an interesting question, you need to specify what exactly is true - then we can game implications. Are we positing that aliens exist? That FTL/time travel is possible? That aliens are attacking, like right now?

goodells 3y ago
Some unsolicited recommendations for sci-fi novels that cover this topic well: - "The Mote in God's Eye" by Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven (1974) - "A Fire Upon The Deep" by Vernor Vinge (1992)

nonethewiser 3y ago

It would unify earth in previously impossible ways.

elboru 3y ago

If you are curious about how Christianity in particular would need to react you could read CS Lewis’ essay “Religion and Rocketry”. We Christians would need to answer these questions: 1. Are there animals anywhere else besides earth? 2. If yes, do any of these animals have what we call ‘rational souls’? That is, are they spiritual beings? 3. If there are such spiritual beings, are any or all of them, like us, fallen? 4. If any of them have fallen, have they been denied Redemption by the Incarnation and Passion of Christ? Christ could have come to those worlds also. 5. Finally, if all of the first four questions could be answered yes, is it certain that this is the only possible mode of Redemption? https://www.cslewis.com/religion-and-rocketry/ https://www.cslewis.com/religion-and-rocketry/

9dev 3y ago
I never got why the interpretation of „world“ christians choose is so narrow; why can’t it describe the galaxy, or universe? What if the genesis revolves around beings on other planets as parts of the same world?
abrenuntio 3y ago
This is a pretty wild but fun topic :-) Saint Augustine discussed a colorful rumour from his time about dog-headed people (cynocephaly). If you look beyond the actual rumour itself, his thinking provides a useful precedent for contemporary Christians to frame discussions about alien intelligence. (If I remember correctly...) Augustine's thinking went something like this: if dog-headed people exist, then the question becomes whether they are descendants of Adam or not. (See the protoevangelium in Gn 3:15; or the genealogy in Lk 3:38; or the Catechism paragraph 402 and surrounding paragraphs on the Fall.) If they are, then they are in need of salvation: the Gospel should be proclaimed to them and presumably they should also receive the Sacraments. If they are not, given that Adam is our actual ancestor, then we might need additional revelation, because no revelation about this was provided to begin with (Jn 10:16 is taken to be a reference to non-Jewish peoples, who are also descendants of Adam and who would also end up worshiping the God of Israel by the sacrifice of the Cross, as predicted in the Old Testament). I'd say this need for extra revelation would become even more pressing in the case of supposed intelligent life that is extra-terrestrial and, despite its rationality, fundamentally does not share in human nature and the Fall. My intuition (as a Catholic) is therefore that we will never encounter extra-terrestrial intelligence. Or if its existence is proven, then we would only learn about it from distant observations, e.g. through the SETI program, but we would never have meaningful interactions with it/them. So far, actual evidence lines up with this more skeptical attitude inspired by the Christian faith: consider the Fermi paradox; or the vast size of the universe and our current understanding of challenges related to faster-than-light travel; or the questionable nature of the existing reports, together with very pragmatic but pressing questions like "why on earth would such advanced aliens secretly buzz around on Earth in highly advanced aircraft and still crash"... The interesting twist (...imho...) is this: "extra terrestrial intelligence", aside from scientific debates about e.g. likelihood and discovery, also serves a cultural purpose. It is one way in which today's non-Christian society tries to think about what "it" might become. This is not unlike how thinking about angels provides Christians with a view of what they may become individually in relation to free will, moral choices and God, things which in angels are completely pure because they are immaterial creatures. The irony is that the reality of extra-terrestrial intelligence is completely unproven and its nature is therefore a matter of pure speculation and fantasy; whereas immaterial spirits actually do exist and we have some knowledge about them, expressed in solid metaphysical concepts.

motohagiography 3y ago

It could be polarizing, where from a religious perspective, other life doesn't break anything and is more evidence of the divine. From a political perspective, it is risky because all our current rules are based on a now-obsolete ontology, nothing needs preservation, we are just animals again, all is material. It creates a power vacuum that some people will rush into. The rationale for that would be, if you don't have to fear the aliens, and we're tiny specs in the universe, why should you fear other men? We are now one species and if you can't get on board with that, there are no moral consequences to shortening your time here, since as we are not the top of the pyramid, we can no longer be held morally responsible to each other - there is only this new power. If it doesn't control us, nothing does, etc. I think the religious view would be that they must also know God, and the only way you can trust another species enough to relate to it is either it accepts your dominion, or recognizes some similar principles of divine authority. Someone who has a personal relationship with God is perfectly equipped to relate to other beings as best a human can, whereas without that, they'd have to worry about you stealing stuff.

mustacheemperor 3y ago

I’m curious to speculate on the most boring possible outcome. Let’s say there is wreckage, from an unmanned craft like a sensing probe dispatched at some unknown time in the past by an unknown creator, including potentially millions of years ago by a species that’s long extinct. There would be a clamor for private business and the general public to get research access, but maybe there’s very little we can actually learn yet. It could be possible these craft reached this solar system very slowly, with no sci-fi FTL propulsion. One way or another there would be a finite amount to glean, and other than any technological benefits how much would it really change life? Organized religion has proven resilient - I honestly doubt the revelation that there was at some point intelligent life distantly far away in the universe would upset their apple cart too much.

dan_mctree 3y ago

Imo the most likely scenario if it's true, is that these are automated von Neumann probes that traveled here without faster than light propulsion and that they're here merely to explore, observe or possibly self-replicate. I believe this is the most likely option because it takes just one successful civilization in our galaxy, or even a close one, that employs this strategy. Crafts made deliberately to meet us would have to originate from much closer civilizations unless the civilization has both FTL travel and much more sensitive and high resolution observation technology than we currently believe possible. Supposing it is a von Neumann probe. There may be a planet or nearby system where these crafts are being built, but we're unlikely to be near the main star/region of the civilization. We might be stuck with just handful of these crafts for probably many (hundreds?) of thousands of years before any real first contact happens.