7 ms·
VR gaming is a flop. Lots of people bought headsets, played with them for a day and now they're all gathering dust. Apple is right to ignore it.
by kalleboo 3y ago
VR gaming is a flop. Lots of people bought headsets, played with them for a day and now they're all gathering dust. Apple is right to ignore it.
- cubefox 3y agoPeople generally agree that VR games are miles ahead of ordinary games in terms of immersion. The adoption problem seems to be that there is no affordable VR console with a lot of big exclusive games. The Meta Quest comes close to a decent price point, but there aren't many publishers making elaborate games for it. A chicken/egg situation with regards to adoption and game investment. Basically, a Game Boy or Switch for VR.
- lostmsu 3y agoThey are immersive, 100%. But also nauseating and forehead heating.
- cubefox 3y agoA reviewer on YouTube said the Apple Vision is a bit heavy because they used a metal frame for some reason. (No comment about foreheads)
- acdha 3y agoYou can safely treat “reviewer on YouTube” as “stranger at a bar” in terms of accuracy. They get paid to get clicks, not to deliver accurate or expert advice, and that heavily favors “why don’t they just…?” comments glossing over challenging engineering decisions.
- crummy 3y agoI think it was MKBHD who seems to know his stuff
- cubefox 3y agoYeah. Also, the "why don't they just" (use plastic/carbon) came from me, not him. Apple is long known for using metal in places where it unnecessarily increases weight, because it makes a product feel more premium.
- manuelabeledo 3y agoHe did mention that competitors use plastic precisely because it is lightweight.
- acdha 3y agoHow many industrial design projects has he done, though? He doesn’t have any particular expertise in the area so while it’s fair to ask why they picked the trade-offs they did, it’s pretty far-fetched to think one of the best industrial design teams in the world forgot about a primary success factor, especially given how much other effort they made to hit weight targets. Absent someone who’s actually worked in the field saying it’s unnecessary, I’d give the benefit of the doubt and assume that they used aluminum instead of plastic for a good reason.
- sumedh 3y ago> one of the best industrial design teams in the world forgot about a primary success factor, Is this the same team who came up with a phone that bends in the pocket?
- grncdr 3y agoAnd a wireless mouse that can't be used with the charge cable plugged in...
- cubefox 3y agoThere are other headsets without metal frame, so we pretty much know this is not necessary. And we also know with certainty that metal absolutely isn't necessary for laptop cases, but Apple still uses metal. The explanation is easy: aesthetics, feel, "haptics".
- vlovich123 3y agoHave you tried a Quest? I found the SW on that fixed all neaseau I experienced on earlier headsets and I think the Quest 2 was even better but I don’t recall at this point.
- loeg 3y agoI had plenty of nausea with the Quest 2.
- esskay 3y agoSame experience here. For stationary position games I found it fine, but anything with any kind of walking handled by the controllers it felt awful. Interestingly I tried out F1 2022 in PCVR mode with it and was surprised to find that didn't make me feel ill. A lot of it comes down to the refresh rate and quality of tracking as its the lag that causes a lot of the nausea.
- mrguyorama 3y agoI think that has more to do with mental framing. Your brain is used to being "in a car" and having weird motion. You also usually have the inside of the car being stationary in your field of vision, meaning your brain can look at that and feel fine that you aren't moving.
- grogenaut 3y agoIt's very varied by person. My friend used a index on my 4090 dedicated (All other monitors to the 2080ti). Running at full frames on google earth. He puked his guts out 20 minutes later and took about 40 total minutes to recover. I was watching the stats the whole time. He just suddenly went urp right in the middle of mt rainier. I had just showed him WA state and no ill effects, but I didn't have issues on a pre-release vive prototype or release occulus OG while doing barrel rolls and back flips or movement vluprs.
- vlovich123 3y ago
- grogenaut 3y agothta's not going to get better with working in one. it'll still be forehead heating, nauseating, distracting.
- the_af 3y ago"Exclusive games" have little to do with adoption. They are a vendor lock in thing. Games need to be good and immersive, not exclusive.
- rocqua 3y agoA game needs to be purpose-build for VR, that makes it almost an exclusive.
- the_af 3y agoMaybe, but focusing on the "exclusive" part -- the one part that is consumer hostile -- seems weird. If there was a standard for VR games, or if a game existed in both Oculus and Vision, it'd be a good thing. Exclusivity is not a good thing.
- dmonitor 3y agothey mean “exclusive to VR” not exclusive to a particular headset
- the_af 3y agoWhat does the word "exclusive" mean in this context? What would be a non-exclusive VR game that can be played on a VR headset? What are some examples? "Exclusive" in games consoles is a loaded word that means "exclusive to this platform and not available anywhere else". If the intended meaning is what you suggest, then I'd recommend removing the word "exclusive" and just saying "there is no affordable VR console with lots of big games".
- mrguyorama 3y ago>What would be a non-exclusive VR game that can be played on a VR headset? VRChat, Superhot, Simpleplanes, Flight Sim, Ultrawings, Phantasmagoria, Htiman, Nearly all VR compatible racing games, Rec Room, Euro Truck Simulator, Most VR compatible horror games like Phantasmagoria, etc etc etc. Did you even try to look it up?
- criddell 3y ago> there is no affordable VR console with a lot of big exclusive games What is even more impressive is when a VR version of a big, popular game is the best version of that game. Affordability is somewhat relative. If something is truly compelling, people will spend a lot of money to get it.
- cubefox 3y agoI don't think that price can always be outweighed by other factors. Successful game consoles are always pretty cheap. Only productivity devices can ask for a high price.
- naravara 3y agoHow much do gamers actually value immersion though? Seems to me the satisfaction of solving puzzles or executing strategy and the sort are the real drivers of satisfaction with games. Immersion is nice, but unless the interaction mode provides something novel to enable better ways to play it’s really just a novelty. In some cases they use it well, like Beat Saber. But how much is that worth to people?
- tanduv 3y agoVR gaming has definitely cultivated a community in the genre of sim-racing and Half Life Alyx modding
- judge2020 3y agoThe problem is that the Quest 2 is what everyone bought and it's arguably not a compelling enough experience to encourage people to put it on instead of playing traditional PC/console games. Most people serious about PC gaming eventually upgrade to an Index because it's still the best option at a great price if you have the room for a full-room setup - and these people definitely play at least a few times a month.
- MR4D 3y agoI agree that so far that is where we've been, but imagine a Sim City or Civilization game on the Vision Pro. THAT would be a ton of fun. I'm sure Sid Meier could make something interesting on it. Frankly, I would love it if Apple would throw money at him to make one of his games on it.
- pmontra 3y agoOne problem to solve is that probably we don't want people to stand for hours and having to walk through the city or the world. They might not have the space at home to do it. They could sit on an office chair and rotate themselves 360°. If they spend 3k on the visor they can spend $100 on a chair. However you don't even have to do that kind of exercise on a screen.
- esskay 3y agoYes this is where lack of controllers is going to be an issue. I guess you could use a PS/Xbox controller but then you may as well be playing on a pc. I get why they didn't want to go the controller route, but they'll surely be very aware that it greatly limits what can be done with games.
- MR4D 3y agoThey never said you can’t use a controller. Remember, the iPad doesn’t come with a controller, but you can use a Pencil with it if you want. Same thing will likely happen with the Vision products.
- cubefox 3y agoThe point is that most games would probably need a special VR controller (not a normal one!), unless they can be played point&click style. But Apple won't include them, so the respective games won't be made in the first place. There aren't even smartphone games which require external controllers, despite the install base of smartphones being orders of magnitude higher than what the sales numbers for the Vision Pro headset will be. Moreover, making elaborate games like civilization wouldn't be economically feasible even if they could be appropriately controlled by default. The price for the headset is so high that not many people will buy it. Then elaborate games can't sell enough copies in order to be profitable. For example, it seems unlikely that even a success like Half Life Alyx made its development cost back. The hardware install base is too small.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jayd16 3y agoGames are successful and making millions on the platform. If some people churn out of the experience is that equivalent to it being a flop?
- esskay 3y agoI'd attribute part of that to there being so few games available that you've got a captive audience and limited content. Meta was proudly boasting about how the Quest 3 will have "Over 500 titles" - thats not something to boast about, it's just highlighting how incredibly poor the platform has been from a developer adoption standpoint.
- MBCook 3y agoI’ve played VR games. They can be a lot of fun and very immersive. But there are clearly still problems to solve. And some of them do involve hardware capability. Basically for the mass market they’re just not there yet. The apple headset certainly appears to have significantly more power and capabilities in many ways. It will be interesting to see what pops up. Though obviously a future version with a lower price will be necessary for it to truly go main stream.
- eclipxe 3y agoIt’s a billion dollar business.
- motoxpro 3y agoVR games? Sure gaming, but I didn't know VR games specifically made so much money. Either way, if I was gaming, playing a new single player 2D (Last of Us, etc) game on a MASSIVE screen on the Vision Pro seems so exciting. Beat Saber and throwing my hands around? Not so much.
- cubefox 3y agoBut Beat Saber would be more exciting, despite seemings.
- mrguyorama 3y agoHave you tried a VR "Big screen" experience? It's a massive gimmick. It's not special. The quality of what you are looking at is lower than using a nice monitor, and sitting in some empty environment that hosts this big screen is dumb.
- motoxpro 3y agoIt's impossible for me to try anything because it doesnt exist right now. There is no VR experience that has high resolution. If the resolution was better, it would be great. Don't care about the "environment" Just project it into my living room like a home theatre.
- eclipxe 3y agoYes, VR Games. https://www.roadtovr.com/oculus-quest-store-revenue-1-billion-milestone-growth-meta/ https://www.roadtovr.com/oculus-quest-store-revenue-1-billio...
- motoxpro 3y agoVery cool! I had no idea
- lodovic 3y agoVR gaming is a niche. Racing and flight simulators are very good; other software is typically mediocre. But VR games do not work with AR glasses.
- chrbr 3y agoEven with my racing sim rig, I find myself using my curved monitor more than the Quest 2. It's just such a pain to re-calibrate and update the software and tweak my graphics settings every time I want to hop in that I usually just don't bother.
- rvz 3y ago> VR gaming is a flop. Lots of people bought headsets, played with them for a day and now they're all gathering dust. A flop indeed. /s From [0] "Standalone VR headset Quest 2 from Meta (formerly Oculus under Facebook) has outsold Microsoft's Xbox Series X/S consoles, according to the latest information from the International Data Corporation (IDC)." > Apple is right to ignore it. Incorrect. Apple didn't ignore it because they cannot ignore it. Apple is targeting both gaming and for work just like how the Meta Quest Pro has done so. [0] https://www.thevirtualreport.biz/data-and-research/65297/quest-2-vr-headset-outsells-xbox-series-xs-consoles/ https://www.thevirtualreport.biz/data-and-research/65297/que...
- joshstrange 3y agoI have to agree overall. I enjoyed my Meta Quest 2 but it's sat unused for a while now. There were a few games that really were awesome (Beat Saber, Walkabout Mini Golf, and Breakroom) but the last 2 really only shine with other friends and coordinating a time we can all play isn't the easiest. This doesn't even touch on the motion sickness aspect. The Q2 further hampered by the piss-poor UI/UX on the Q2, it really is astounding how bad it is. Once you are in a game it gets better but joining a party or joining an in-progress game is a roll of the dice. When it works it's almost magical but the failure rate is way too high. The resolution on the Q2 is also just way too low for certain games, I think a MtG-type game would be super cool on the Q2 (and the games I tried in this vein had /massive/ potential that was thrown away completely due to blurry text). In the ends the Q2 has way too many downsides and not enough upsides to keep me using it. I will be getting a Vision Pro at launch though, the resolution alone almost would sell it for me but the emphasis on AR and productivity are the clincher.
- stiltzkin 3y agoHalf Lie Alyx is a great game.
- hanspeter 3y ago> VR gaming is a flop But isn't it still the most succesful application of VR? I don't see another application of VR / AR that will prevent the device eventually gathering dust once novelty has faded. Certainly nothing in the presentation from Apple.