6 ms·
But it does put an enormous amount of pressure on the eye tracking. As far as I can tell so far, the role of precise 2D control has been shifted
by JohnBooty 3y ago
But it does put an enormous amount of pressure
on the eye tracking. As far as I can tell so
far, the role of precise 2D control has been
shifted to the eyes.
I've got one good eye and one bad eye. The bad eye is legally blind, has an off-center iris and is kind of lazy w.r.t. tracking.
I'm extremely curious to know how Vision Pro deals with this. One certainly hopes there's some kind of "single eye" mode; certainly seems possible with relatively small effort and the % of the population who'd benefit seems fairly significant.
Eye tracking most certainly sounds like the way to go, relative to hand-waving.
The Minority Report movie probably set the industry back by a decade or two. Waving your hands around to control stuff seems logical but is quickly exhausting.
- miketery 3y agoTrack record wise, apple is one of the best in terms of serving accessibility. So I’d bet greater than 50% odds that they’re thinking about lazy eye or one eye or derivatives there of.
- ahahahahah 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- avidphantasm 3y agoWell, they have pretty consistently invested in and showcased accessibility, famously ROI-be-damned (to paraphrase Tim Cook). So, it’s not a stretch to expect (but not assume) they will have the perspicacity to do the same here.
- spacephysics 3y agoI agree not to drink the apple copium, but they do excel in accessibility by a large degree. Honestly, I think a large part of the industry taking into account accessibility in a more serious ways comes from the competitive advantage apple has created. Doesn’t mean accessibility hasn’t been done in the past. By no means. But it’s a market segment they have on lockdown
- gnicholas 3y agoFWIW, I emailed a fairly senior accessibility person at Apple yesterday with a question about the headset and got a response back today, even in the midst of WWDC. And I'm a relative nobody — just a bootstrapped solo founder who works in the accessibility field.
- gnicholas 3y agoIt would have been much less exciting to see Tom Cruise sitting on a couch, hands in his lap, gently flicking his fingers to scroll through crime scene footage. IIRC he talked about how tired his arms got during filming. EDIT: found it — he didn't talk about it, but it was reported that he had to frequently rest his arms: https://medium.com/@LeapMotion/taking-motion-control-ergonomics-beyond-minority-report-13b4fac4567 https://medium.com/@LeapMotion/taking-motion-control-ergonom...
- atleastoptimal 3y agoYeah, Tom Cruise doesn't seem like the type of person to admit he would need to rest his arms.
- JohnBooty 3y agoOh, 100%. The interfaces in Minority Report were spectacular in terms of cinematic movie appeal. Artistically it was a great choice, and they certainly weren't intending to inspire a bunch of wrong-thinking UI choices in the real world.
- gcr 3y agoI have pendulum nystagmus since birth. My eyes saccade and shake very rapidly, even when I'm focused on something. Folks who talk with me certainly notice. I really hope I won't be locked out of using vision pro just because its input modality isn't compatible with my body...
- boppo1 3y agoYou might be SOL on version 1 or 2 but they'll figure it out eventually.
- JohnBooty 3y agoThat was my thinking. They don't always nail down accessibility issues right away, but I think they're fairly highly regarded in terms of getting to things eventually. (I say "I think" because I have not actually used their accessibility features) With all of the new paradigms in VisionOS it seems perhaps unavoidable that accessibility features might take some time to catch up. Engineers and designers have to wrap their minds around the new stuff.
- ElFitz 3y agoTheir accessibility features are quite fascinating. Sound recognition for example, or Assistive Touch on the watch. Not needing those I have no idea wether or not they’re actually useful, but it sure is impressive and seems well-thought.
- Spooky23 3y agoMaybe. The eyes are a sort of the canary in the coal mine for lots of neurological issues. Sometimes people don’t notice problems because the brain adapts well, and accommodation may be more challenging than one might think. I have a loved one having issues due to a brain cancer. Optical seizures were the first warning sign and went unnoticed for some time. It would be amazing if VisionOS could potentially detect some conditions or help folks with epilepsy just as the watch has for some cardiac events.
- bentcorner 3y ago
- NolF 3y agoConsidering there is a "calibration" step. I'm going to guess that as long as the "bad" eye behaves relatively predictably, it should be able to ignore the bad input and put appropriate weight on the "good" eye. It will also be interesting how the outward display will display the "bad" eye input including missing eyes, lazy eyes, nystagmus, etc...
- m3kw9 3y agoThey have accessibility/alternative input features to help with that
- ChristopherDrum 3y agoFrom Apple's visionOS page, re: Accessibility (https://developer.apple.com/visionos/ https://developer.apple.com/visionos/) "And for people who prefer a different way to navigate content, Pointer Control lets them select their index finger, wrist, or head as an alternative pointer." This reads to me like they've got you covered (at least in principle).
- judge2020 3y agoFrom a Q&A session, a trackpad will also work.
- ehnto 3y agoHopefully you can just set one eye as dominant. I as well have one good eye, so just using that one for tracking should be fine.
- mediaman 3y agoThey have a training process at the beginning that learns your eyes. It asks you to ‘point’ to various points in space. I’d imagine it would be able to detect a dominant eye with that, and prefer it over a slower or non-tracking eye.
- bowsamic 3y agoCovered in a basic sense, but that's an extremely diminished experience which basically removes half the reason to use it
- jayd16 3y ago> Eye tracking most certainly sounds like the way to go, relative to hand-waving. I suppose Apple could change my mind but I've never been a fan of eyes as input. Touch typing or any equivalent where you can look at one thing and do another seems impossible now.
- acchow 3y agoI'd wait for the product to actually launch before making such a judgement
- XorNot 3y agoApple don't need you to defend them here. They presented what they presented, and whether we're interested is based on that. It's a legitimate concern and a valid point of discussion.
- JohnBooty 3y agoThe interaction paradigm you describe (where it's literally impossible to look at one window while actively using another) makes so little sense that we can almost certainly rule it out. Certainly no press members who demo'd the unit are describing the interface that way. That's not "defending Apple", that's just... gosh, I can't think of any word besides common sense. From all of the presentations and press accounts, it seems clear that eye tracking is something of a direct replacement for the mouse/trackpad cursor -- in fact it seems you can use a trackpad or presumably a mouse as well. Looking at an app or "window" seems equivalent to mousing over it, not equivalent to clicking to activate that window.
- ehnto 3y ago> The interaction paradigm you describe (where it's literally impossible to look at one window while actively using another) makes so little sense that we can almost certainly rule it out. I think the implication is that the window you are looking at is focussed automatically. Which wouldn't work for say, typing up a document to a text editor while reading from a reference doc. That's just the beginning, I use a mouse-to-focus window manager and that happens all the time with all sorts of things.
- charlie0 3y agoThe arm waving is some form of exercise, which is a plus for me.
- discordance 3y ago"Gorilla arm" is a term engineers coined about 30 years ago to describe what happens when people try to use these interfaces for an extended period of time. It's the touchscreen equivalent of carpal-tunnel syndrome. According to the New Hacker's Dictionary, "the arm begins to feel sore, cramped and oversized -- the operator looks like a gorilla while using the touchscreen and feels like one afterwards." https://www.wired.com/2010/10/gorilla-arm-multitouch/ https://www.wired.com/2010/10/gorilla-arm-multitouch/
- pharmakom 3y agoI guess non of the engineers lifted weights. that community has a bunch of terms for this
- Fr0styMatt88 3y agoI’m with you on this one, but I also have nystagmus in both eyes. I’ve been curious but also somewhat apprehensive about stuff starting to rely on eye tracking and whether these edge cases will get handled. Probably best for me not to be an early-adopter in this case :) Edit to add: Can confirm that Apple stuff is amazing with accessibility, so I’m not surprised there are alternative input methods. My main thinking towards the future is around how nystagmus and foveated rendering will interact. That’s a giant and fascinating research topic I imagine.
- robomartin 3y agoStrabismus and amblyopia are common enough (4% of the population) that one would hope these types of systems would make sensible provisions to accommodate people with these conditions. https://www.childrenshospital.org/conditions/strabismus-and-amblyopia https://www.childrenshospital.org/conditions/strabismus-and-...
- csomar 3y agoLazy eyes, I think, are probably popular among software developers (I got one, and most devs I know have eyes issues). I think that's why Apple got lenses too. I think (hope) they got us covered since we'll be the first to use, develop on, and afford these devices.
- teddyh 3y ago> The Minority Report movie probably set the industry back by a decade or two. Waving your hands around to control stuff seems logical but is quickly exhausting. The bad idea had waves even before that: Remember the gorilla arm. http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/gorilla-arm.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/gorilla-arm.html
- pmontra 3y agoI remember the gorilla arm but I found out that occasionally raising a hand from the keyboard and tapping the screen is not a noticeable effort and it's faster than aiming at the touchpad or (of course) reaching for the mouse. I discovered it mostly by using a Samsung tablet with both a Dex interface over Android and with an Ubuntu Unity one (the defunct Dex for Linux.) That's maybe because the screen is small and low. Raising an arm at or above the head is a different matter. If you're cycling with a heart rate monitor you discover that you add some beats when you raise your hands (say, go from 150 to 155) and gain some if you lower your chest close to the handlebar. This doesn't take into account increased or reduced drag because I measured it at home on trainers.
- E39M5S62 3y agoI've noticed the same thing when I ride in my basement. If I come up off of the hoods, grab a water bottle and take a drink my heart rate bumps up ~5bpm. It'll climb a bit more if I eat something like a granola bar or a gel. What's interesting is that unlike steady state to a hard sprint, the heart rate rise is almost immediate. There's some delay - 20 to 45 seconds - if I change it up and do a sprint interval before my heart rate reflects that effort.
- malloci 3y ago> The Minority Report movie probably set the industry back by a decade or two. Waving your hands around to control stuff seems logical but is quickly exhausting. There was an operations center I worked at that had a large touch screen (think cnn wall), that always sat in the corner of the area collecting dust, but whenever some higher up would visit it would get pulled out and used just to provide a wow factor. It was always the unlucky one that ended up having to use it during this time. The fatigue was horrible.
- hazebooth 3y agoI tried the HoloLens ages ago and honestly the only upgrade would be the display & how often the inputs worked. Microsoft was demoing the HoloLens @ some hackathon and had a program where you could flip pages in a virtual book. On top of the book looking super low quality / illegible, I could never get the controls to work. The only thing that will make the vision pro seem like a worthwhile purchase would be if the controls worked flawlessly. I already have faith in the displays & picture.
- Chyzwar 3y agoI have a divergent squint on both eyes when tired/exhausted. I yet to try VR with eye tracking. Furthermore, I think the future would be some kind of brain reading implant/scanner.