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First, personally I don't care what hardware or software people use, if they are happy with the tools that they using then that's good. That said, Apple has be

First, personally I don't care what hardware or software people use, if they are happy with the tools that they using then that's good. That said, Apple has been very hostile to hackers over the years imo. Hardware being hard to repair, access, upgrade, etc. I think at one point they were making it virtually impossible to replace components because they were serial locked. As far as I am aware, progress Apple as made has been in response to public image issues or changes in consumer laws within the EU. Plus Apple software is heavily indebted to Open Source software so they very easily could be releasing drivers for their hardware instead of relying on community to do backwards engineering.

rowanG077 3y ago
That's not true for Macs. Apple allowed and worked with MS to allow windows to work on Intel macs. That's pretty insane from allowing people to do what they want with their hardware.
- thx-2718 3y ago
  No offense but that's not even contextually the same thing so I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.
  - rowanG077 3y ago
    You claim Apples Mac line of products is adversarial to hackers. Which I dispute with the example they help alternative OS to run on the Mac. First with Windows and now Asahi.
kaba0 3y ago
> Hardware being hard to repair, access, upgrade, etc. I think at one point they were making it virtually impossible to replace components because they were serial locked You can only have so many flexibility in design with modern hardware — they are not fitting things into 5 cm “thin” chassics anymore. How exactly are such a thin device be repairable? Similarly to how old car motors could be tweaked with, you need special tools to touch anything in a modern engine. This is not against the customers, these are trade offs. But even this way, apple devices have by far the longest lifetimes, macs, iphones will have 2-3 owners easily - so is it really fair to call them out, or is it just baseless emotional reaction? Also, what you heard about locked down components resulted in better security, a much lower risk of theft, and a much more clean second-hand market (where you won’t be sold a phone with a cheap chinese shittier screen for example).
- Kratacoa 3y ago
  > But even this way, apple devices have by far the longest lifetimes, macs, iphones will have 2-3 owners easily - so is it really fair to call them out, or is it just baseless emotional reaction? I would dispute this claim, e.g. Apple settles iPhone slowdown case for $500m[1], just the first link I found looking for "planned obsolescence apple" on DuckDuckGo. This is not exclusive to their iPhones as one can find with a quick search. [1][https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51706635 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51706635]
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Which was about a very stupidly communicated, but genuinely good intentioned misshap. Iphones older devices with old batteries had cases where they no longer could provide sufficient voltage to the phone and thus it would reboot randomly for people. To fix the issue, they decreased CPU frequency so that it would no longer drain so high peak power. But they should have made it an option (it is one now on these devices) instead, they might have even come out good from it (as an android manufacturer wouldn’t even care about such an old device at the time).
- thx-2718 3y ago
  "But even this way, apple devices have by far the longest lifetimes, macs, iphones will have 2-3 owners easily - so is it really fair to call them out, or is it just baseless emotional reaction?" Why reply that criticism of Apple must be purely an emotional one? Kind of diminishes your argument here. Immediate search result for repairable phones: https://www.androidcentral.com/best-sustainable-repairable-phones https://www.androidcentral.com/best-sustainable-repairable-p... https://shop.fairphone.com/en/buy-fairphone-4 https://shop.fairphone.com/en/buy-fairphone-4 Here's a laptop that you can upgrade: https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/ Lifetime for Apple isn't as long as you make it out to be when batteries need replaced and software support for hardware ends: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/06/macos-sonoma-drops-support-for-another-wide-swath-of-intel-macs/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/06/macos-sonoma-drops-s... "Also, what you heard about locked down components resulted in better security, a much lower risk of theft, and a much more clean second-hand market (where you won’t be sold a phone with a cheap chinese shittier screen for example)." Apple could just release stuff that didn't break so easily too so no need to risk changing out a screen if it ain't broke. There are plenty of ways to increase security of the device without making it less consumer friendly. Additionally since the context here is whether Apple has been hacker friendly or not, why shouldn't you be allowed to upgrade and change the hardware of YOUR device? As in, you want to put in more storage or change the screen to one that's better in some manner (maybe it's just cost) then you ought to be able to. That is it should be the device owners choice whether or not to replace their screen with one from Apple or a cheaper one.
circuit10 3y ago
“I think at one point they were making it virtually impossible to replace components because they were serial locked.” They are very much still doing that
- hedora 3y ago
  In fairness, most instances of them doing that actually significantly increase the cost of evil maid hardware tampering attacks. If I could, I'd configure grub or whatever to serial-lock my Linux install to my desktop hardware (and keep a recovery key that would unlock it at another location).
  - circuit10 3y ago
    The issue is that Apple isn’t giving anyone access to the tools to pair the parts, unless you give them all the information in advance, buy them at possibly inflated prices through their self repair program if they’re even available, and then have Apple remotely approve it afterwards (and this process only really works for individuals, 3rd party repair is more important as most people don’t have the skill)
    - hedora 3y ago
      If I was running a third-party unauthorized repair shop, then I'd care. However, I just don't see why I should care, as a customer. Also, I have trouble wrapping my head around the standpoint that people want to pay the Apple "it always sort of works" tax, then spend lots of extra time trying to save $50 on a repair. When I mess around with hobby hardware, it's esoteric stuff, not readily-available laptops that are being built by the millions. For that, sometimes you need a volt-ohm meter, or diagnostic rigs. Every few years I even bring some piece of a Linux box to a repair shop, to narrow down some fault. However, Macs are all identical, so repairs boil down to "yank component, throw in the recycling shredder box, and (if you just replaced the mainboard) restore from iCloud Backup". Apple hardware switched over to being livestock, not pets a long time ago, so I'm not seeing the point in spending lots of effort on custom repairs (vs. replacing + recycling the bad components).
mschuster91 3y ago
> That said, Apple has been very hostile to hackers over the years imo. Hardware being hard to repair, access, upgrade, etc. I think at one point they were making it virtually impossible to replace components because they were serial locked. That came partially out of the desire to reduce the lure for thieves and robbers. It was really bad during the first generations that regularly had jailbreaks and ways to bypass "Find My..." or whatever, then the first tightening reduced resale values of stolen iPhones by a good amount (as they were only good enough to slaughter for parts once reported stolen), and the latest round made it even worse for criminals. Personally though, I'd preferred they simply provided "unlock codes" with a phone that could be used to remove the association between a part's SN and the IMEI/SN of the phone. That way, buyers of iPhone have something similar to a certificate of authenticity.
labcomputer 3y ago
> I think at one point they were making it virtually impossible to replace components because they were serial locked. That seems like an obvious reaction to the fact that criminals (once they were prevented by activation lock from selling stolen iPhones) started parting out stolen iPhones and selling the parts to repair shops. I think a better approach would be for Apple to only block the replacement part if that part has a serial associated with an activation-locked phone, but I'm sure it's easier to just block everything except for the replacements shipped directly from Apple.

rowanG077 3y ago

That's not true for Macs. Apple allowed and worked with MS to allow windows to work on Intel macs. That's pretty insane from allowing people to do what they want with their hardware.

thx-2718 3y ago
No offense but that's not even contextually the same thing so I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.
- rowanG077 3y ago
  You claim Apples Mac line of products is adversarial to hackers. Which I dispute with the example they help alternative OS to run on the Mac. First with Windows and now Asahi.

kaba0 3y ago

> Hardware being hard to repair, access, upgrade, etc. I think at one point they were making it virtually impossible to replace components because they were serial locked You can only have so many flexibility in design with modern hardware — they are not fitting things into 5 cm “thin” chassics anymore. How exactly are such a thin device be repairable? Similarly to how old car motors could be tweaked with, you need special tools to touch anything in a modern engine. This is not against the customers, these are trade offs. But even this way, apple devices have by far the longest lifetimes, macs, iphones will have 2-3 owners easily - so is it really fair to call them out, or is it just baseless emotional reaction? Also, what you heard about locked down components resulted in better security, a much lower risk of theft, and a much more clean second-hand market (where you won’t be sold a phone with a cheap chinese shittier screen for example).

Kratacoa 3y ago
> But even this way, apple devices have by far the longest lifetimes, macs, iphones will have 2-3 owners easily - so is it really fair to call them out, or is it just baseless emotional reaction? I would dispute this claim, e.g. Apple settles iPhone slowdown case for $500m[1], just the first link I found looking for "planned obsolescence apple" on DuckDuckGo. This is not exclusive to their iPhones as one can find with a quick search. [1][https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51706635 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51706635]
- kaba0 3y ago
  Which was about a very stupidly communicated, but genuinely good intentioned misshap. Iphones older devices with old batteries had cases where they no longer could provide sufficient voltage to the phone and thus it would reboot randomly for people. To fix the issue, they decreased CPU frequency so that it would no longer drain so high peak power. But they should have made it an option (it is one now on these devices) instead, they might have even come out good from it (as an android manufacturer wouldn’t even care about such an old device at the time).
thx-2718 3y ago
"But even this way, apple devices have by far the longest lifetimes, macs, iphones will have 2-3 owners easily - so is it really fair to call them out, or is it just baseless emotional reaction?" Why reply that criticism of Apple must be purely an emotional one? Kind of diminishes your argument here. Immediate search result for repairable phones: https://www.androidcentral.com/best-sustainable-repairable-phones https://www.androidcentral.com/best-sustainable-repairable-p... https://shop.fairphone.com/en/buy-fairphone-4 https://shop.fairphone.com/en/buy-fairphone-4 Here's a laptop that you can upgrade: https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/ Lifetime for Apple isn't as long as you make it out to be when batteries need replaced and software support for hardware ends: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/06/macos-sonoma-drops-support-for-another-wide-swath-of-intel-macs/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/06/macos-sonoma-drops-s... "Also, what you heard about locked down components resulted in better security, a much lower risk of theft, and a much more clean second-hand market (where you won’t be sold a phone with a cheap chinese shittier screen for example)." Apple could just release stuff that didn't break so easily too so no need to risk changing out a screen if it ain't broke. There are plenty of ways to increase security of the device without making it less consumer friendly. Additionally since the context here is whether Apple has been hacker friendly or not, why shouldn't you be allowed to upgrade and change the hardware of YOUR device? As in, you want to put in more storage or change the screen to one that's better in some manner (maybe it's just cost) then you ought to be able to. That is it should be the device owners choice whether or not to replace their screen with one from Apple or a cheaper one.

circuit10 3y ago

“I think at one point they were making it virtually impossible to replace components because they were serial locked.” They are very much still doing that

hedora 3y ago
In fairness, most instances of them doing that actually significantly increase the cost of evil maid hardware tampering attacks. If I could, I'd configure grub or whatever to serial-lock my Linux install to my desktop hardware (and keep a recovery key that would unlock it at another location).
- circuit10 3y ago
  The issue is that Apple isn’t giving anyone access to the tools to pair the parts, unless you give them all the information in advance, buy them at possibly inflated prices through their self repair program if they’re even available, and then have Apple remotely approve it afterwards (and this process only really works for individuals, 3rd party repair is more important as most people don’t have the skill)
  - hedora 3y ago
    If I was running a third-party unauthorized repair shop, then I'd care. However, I just don't see why I should care, as a customer. Also, I have trouble wrapping my head around the standpoint that people want to pay the Apple "it always sort of works" tax, then spend lots of extra time trying to save $50 on a repair. When I mess around with hobby hardware, it's esoteric stuff, not readily-available laptops that are being built by the millions. For that, sometimes you need a volt-ohm meter, or diagnostic rigs. Every few years I even bring some piece of a Linux box to a repair shop, to narrow down some fault. However, Macs are all identical, so repairs boil down to "yank component, throw in the recycling shredder box, and (if you just replaced the mainboard) restore from iCloud Backup". Apple hardware switched over to being livestock, not pets a long time ago, so I'm not seeing the point in spending lots of effort on custom repairs (vs. replacing + recycling the bad components).

mschuster91 3y ago

> That said, Apple has been very hostile to hackers over the years imo. Hardware being hard to repair, access, upgrade, etc. I think at one point they were making it virtually impossible to replace components because they were serial locked. That came partially out of the desire to reduce the lure for thieves and robbers. It was really bad during the first generations that regularly had jailbreaks and ways to bypass "Find My..." or whatever, then the first tightening reduced resale values of stolen iPhones by a good amount (as they were only good enough to slaughter for parts once reported stolen), and the latest round made it even worse for criminals. Personally though, I'd preferred they simply provided "unlock codes" with a phone that could be used to remove the association between a part's SN and the IMEI/SN of the phone. That way, buyers of iPhone have something similar to a certificate of authenticity.

labcomputer 3y ago

> I think at one point they were making it virtually impossible to replace components because they were serial locked. That seems like an obvious reaction to the fact that criminals (once they were prevented by activation lock from selling stolen iPhones) started parting out stolen iPhones and selling the parts to repair shops. I think a better approach would be for Apple to only block the replacement part if that part has a serial associated with an activation-locked phone, but I'm sure it's easier to just block everything except for the replacements shipped directly from Apple.