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I'm not sure why there's a few negative comments here. The dialectic the article sets up is clear: Prior: People acquire helplessness through reinforced ex

I'm not sure why there's a few negative comments here. The dialectic the article sets up is clear: Prior: People acquire helplessness through reinforced external negative stimuli (dysphoric) Author: No, it isnt the presence of negative stimuli, but the absence of internal positive (control-promoting) This makes all the difference for understanding how to treat the issue; as well as how to communicate it. Let me give an example from my own life this morning. For quite awhile I've been leaving things in random places where they aren't tidy (prone to breaking, etc.). This morning, for the first time in awhile, I made the extra effort to move something to a better place. On the first model, and an intuitive one, it was the effort to pick up the items that was the negative stimuli. So the treatment is: learn to enjoy tidying, etc. Rather, I actually experienced the opposite, and I sort of realised it at the time. This week I began resetting all my schedules, alarms; started reorganising my day. And it's no coincidence that this tidying-act followed; as have many since i've done this. The heart of the change was actually just putting 4 alarms on my phone. So what has happened? I havent learnt to enjoy anything more. Rather, I've started rehabituating my self of control -- by even trivial changes, I am strengthening that sense. The items of my apartment more clearly appear as objects that I can control, rather than a chaotic environment that's beyond control. This I think is incredibly important in how we frame advice in these cases. If you have some "learned helplessness", don't focus on the tasks over which you're helpless. Do something quite radically different: practice taking small steps of control, which require minimal effort -- and so on.

the_third_wave 3y ago
[flagged]
- krkartikay 3y ago
  That is not the first rule in the book. Although yes Jordan Peterson might say something like that. Just to get the facts clear: the first rule in his book states “Stand straight with your shoulders back.” which he discusses both in its literal (biological) meaning and the metaphorical meaning.
  - the_third_wave 3y ago
    Now that you mention it, yes, that seems to fit what I heard - as I stated I have not read the book, just heard him mention it several times in his netcasts. I thought it was the first rule because I distinctly remember the phrase 'first, clean up your damn room'.
beardedetim 3y ago
I've called this the snowball of success where you make small, disciplined actions that you call "success" (_setting an alarm_) than then "snowballs" into larger "successes" (_cleaning your room_). The opposite is true as well, in my experience: if you fail to make the _small_ actions, it will "snowball" into you not making the larger actions throughout the day.
- bsenftner 3y ago
  I've been calling these the "virtue cycle" and the "viscous cycle" - both being behaviors that reinforce "similar behaviors". Most people are familiar with the term "viscous cycle" and the idea of a downward spiral of reinforcing behaviors, but that same interlocking mechanism works in reverse too. One can generate an expanding series of positive behaviors to eliminate bad habits, promote positive behaviors and instill a more positive general attitude simply by proving to yourself that you are indeed in control of yourself.
  - beardedetim 3y ago
    Really good way to say it! In my experience, there's something to do with starting a "flow" that I as a human get stuck into. If the "flow" is doing things that I don't want to do but I _need_ to do for whatever reason (_because I told myself I would, because it will help my future self, etc_), I will be in a "flow" state of doing those things, causing the "snowball" effect or the "virtue/viscous cycle" as you describe it. As someone posted above, there are limits to this but I wonder if there are systems or ways that we could _stretch_ those limits, possibly by making the _hard_ things not a choice and to be in this _flow_ state without needing to actively expend energy to be in it. Something like a muscle where the more you stretch it past its ability, the stronger it gets (_within reason_). As an example, when I started running, I could hardly do 1 minute without heavy breathing and now am able to run half marathons that, while tired at the end, are completely within my wheelhouse without feeling almost dead.
    - Syntonicles 3y ago
      This is absolutely the way forward. When I started running, I couldn't make it three city blocks without an asthma attack and cramps. Now I do 3-5 miles of hill running per day in the country summer sun. (Tennessee) Over the past few years I have been developing a system based on incremental flow, as you mentioned. You can absolutely use small habits, and also leverage the Flow State proper in order to train. Eventually you are able to graduate to multiple spinning plates. (to reference your other comment). As you say the greatest danger is dropping all the plates in the presence of a minor stressor since you are operating at your current capacity. What you end up needing to train is getting back on the horse. It's similar to the notion of "Returning to Breath" in a meditation practice. I have a leveling system and an economy built in, so that I gamify the practice of picking up the pieces. I'm currently working on smoothing out the difficulty curve, comparing several game mechanics like leveling down, adaptive difficulty, and triggering special modes. The idea is to have some sort of a pressure relief valve built into your life. Do you use any systems in your own life?
goodpoint 3y ago
What you are describing has little to do with learned helplessness.
Errancer 3y ago
Well I wrote one of the negative comments and I think you give the article an apologetic interpretation (which is great). I can agree that if this is the point then it is a good advice, but how is it different from setting yourself SMART goals and the general wisdom from personal management in psychology or theory of action in philosophy? You seem to argue that learned helplessness is alike weakness of will and while they might be on continuum there is something different between those cases since under normal circumstances you don't fail to run away from pain. And while the way "out" might be similar if we we fail to understand the difference then we will fail to understand the mental state of people who are in genuine cases of learned helplessness such as many-year homeless people. So, like, maybe a careful criticism is not that the article is wrong but it simplifies things to the point where on the one hand we are blinded to the most important things about learned helplessness and on the other hand besides the point that you bring up the article includes many rhetorical devices which obscure the main point.
phkahler 3y ago
All good, but the natural response to discomfort was to do something about it (perhaps this was previously learned?) but after repeated failure to do anything about it, the shocks become accepted). The helplessness was learned. Maybe that's reversion to a default though?
johnchristopher 3y ago
> On the first model, and an intuitive one, it was the effort to pick up the items that was the negative stimuli. So the treatment is: learn to enjoy tidying, etc. Hmm. The negative stimuli here should be when something breaks. You'll always have to make some efforts to tidy things up, so it can't be a negative stimuli in itself because it's not one of the outcomes. Here it's a positive punishment (broken things should lead you to change the original behavior) (actually, not tidying up has its own positive reinforcement stimuli: you don't have to make efforts). > I havent learnt to enjoy anything more. Rather, I've started rehabituating my self of control -- by even trivial changes, I am strengthening that sense. The items of my apartment more clearly appear as objects that I can control, rather than a chaotic environment that's beyond control. Yes, there it is: positive stimuli reinforcing behavior. Which works better than positive punishment (or so I learned decades ago in psy101 ?).

the_third_wave 3y ago

[flagged]

krkartikay 3y ago
That is not the first rule in the book. Although yes Jordan Peterson might say something like that. Just to get the facts clear: the first rule in his book states “Stand straight with your shoulders back.” which he discusses both in its literal (biological) meaning and the metaphorical meaning.
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  Now that you mention it, yes, that seems to fit what I heard - as I stated I have not read the book, just heard him mention it several times in his netcasts. I thought it was the first rule because I distinctly remember the phrase 'first, clean up your damn room'.

beardedetim 3y ago

I've called this the snowball of success where you make small, disciplined actions that you call "success" (_setting an alarm_) than then "snowballs" into larger "successes" (_cleaning your room_). The opposite is true as well, in my experience: if you fail to make the _small_ actions, it will "snowball" into you not making the larger actions throughout the day.

bsenftner 3y ago
I've been calling these the "virtue cycle" and the "viscous cycle" - both being behaviors that reinforce "similar behaviors". Most people are familiar with the term "viscous cycle" and the idea of a downward spiral of reinforcing behaviors, but that same interlocking mechanism works in reverse too. One can generate an expanding series of positive behaviors to eliminate bad habits, promote positive behaviors and instill a more positive general attitude simply by proving to yourself that you are indeed in control of yourself.
- beardedetim 3y ago
  Really good way to say it! In my experience, there's something to do with starting a "flow" that I as a human get stuck into. If the "flow" is doing things that I don't want to do but I _need_ to do for whatever reason (_because I told myself I would, because it will help my future self, etc_), I will be in a "flow" state of doing those things, causing the "snowball" effect or the "virtue/viscous cycle" as you describe it. As someone posted above, there are limits to this but I wonder if there are systems or ways that we could _stretch_ those limits, possibly by making the _hard_ things not a choice and to be in this _flow_ state without needing to actively expend energy to be in it. Something like a muscle where the more you stretch it past its ability, the stronger it gets (_within reason_). As an example, when I started running, I could hardly do 1 minute without heavy breathing and now am able to run half marathons that, while tired at the end, are completely within my wheelhouse without feeling almost dead.
  - Syntonicles 3y ago
    This is absolutely the way forward. When I started running, I couldn't make it three city blocks without an asthma attack and cramps. Now I do 3-5 miles of hill running per day in the country summer sun. (Tennessee) Over the past few years I have been developing a system based on incremental flow, as you mentioned. You can absolutely use small habits, and also leverage the Flow State proper in order to train. Eventually you are able to graduate to multiple spinning plates. (to reference your other comment). As you say the greatest danger is dropping all the plates in the presence of a minor stressor since you are operating at your current capacity. What you end up needing to train is getting back on the horse. It's similar to the notion of "Returning to Breath" in a meditation practice. I have a leveling system and an economy built in, so that I gamify the practice of picking up the pieces. I'm currently working on smoothing out the difficulty curve, comparing several game mechanics like leveling down, adaptive difficulty, and triggering special modes. The idea is to have some sort of a pressure relief valve built into your life. Do you use any systems in your own life?

goodpoint 3y ago

What you are describing has little to do with learned helplessness.

Errancer 3y ago

Well I wrote one of the negative comments and I think you give the article an apologetic interpretation (which is great). I can agree that if this is the point then it is a good advice, but how is it different from setting yourself SMART goals and the general wisdom from personal management in psychology or theory of action in philosophy? You seem to argue that learned helplessness is alike weakness of will and while they might be on continuum there is something different between those cases since under normal circumstances you don't fail to run away from pain. And while the way "out" might be similar if we we fail to understand the difference then we will fail to understand the mental state of people who are in genuine cases of learned helplessness such as many-year homeless people. So, like, maybe a careful criticism is not that the article is wrong but it simplifies things to the point where on the one hand we are blinded to the most important things about learned helplessness and on the other hand besides the point that you bring up the article includes many rhetorical devices which obscure the main point.

phkahler 3y ago

All good, but the natural response to discomfort was to do something about it (perhaps this was previously learned?) but after repeated failure to do anything about it, the shocks become accepted). The helplessness was learned. Maybe that's reversion to a default though?

johnchristopher 3y ago

> On the first model, and an intuitive one, it was the effort to pick up the items that was the negative stimuli. So the treatment is: learn to enjoy tidying, etc. Hmm. The negative stimuli here should be when something breaks. You'll always have to make some efforts to tidy things up, so it can't be a negative stimuli in itself because it's not one of the outcomes. Here it's a positive punishment (broken things should lead you to change the original behavior) (actually, not tidying up has its own positive reinforcement stimuli: you don't have to make efforts). > I havent learnt to enjoy anything more. Rather, I've started rehabituating my self of control -- by even trivial changes, I am strengthening that sense. The items of my apartment more clearly appear as objects that I can control, rather than a chaotic environment that's beyond control. Yes, there it is: positive stimuli reinforcing behavior. Which works better than positive punishment (or so I learned decades ago in psy101 ?).