6 ms·

Grusch said the recoveries of partial fragments through and up to intact vehicles have been made for decades through the present day by the government, its alli

Grusch said the recoveries of partial fragments through and up to intact vehicles have been made for decades through the present day by the government, its allies, and defense contractors. Analysis has determined that the objects retrieved are “of exotic origin (non-human intelligence, whether extraterrestrial or unknown origin) based on the vehicle morphologies and material science testing and the possession of unique atomic arrangements and radiological signatures,” he said. Extraordinary claims -- extraordinary evidence. Show us some of these fragments, please. You know, the ones with the special "vehicle morphologies", the "unique atomic arrangements and radiological signatures" and stuff. Otherwise, there's nothing to talk about here. And nothing fundamentally different from these claims than in all those glaring headlines we've been glancing past, at the top of few certain supermarket tabloids that don't need to be named -- for half a century now. "Secret Government Base Has Wreckage of Alien Craft ..."

spfzero 3y ago
Its hard to imagine so many people could have known about this for so long, yet it remained secret. I expect you could keep something like an assassination secret since everyone who knows about it is probably in some way complicit. Wouldn't be the case here. Also of course the energy required to get to Earth from somewhere else, for an organism that used any kind of "vehicle" we could recognize as such, would be enormous. But, good to stay open-minded.
- capableweb 3y ago
  Worth remembering that if in 2010 you claimed that the US government was spying on everyone via everything, you'd be called a conspiracy-nut, we now know that it was true, what so many people were claiming before that. I agree that probably there needs to be more evidence than "trust me, I've done this for a long time" in order for us to assert there is extra-terrestrial intelligence. But, I wouldn't believe it's false just based on "it couldn't have been hidden for this long".
  - Loquebantur 3y ago
    This isn't just "some guy claiming whatever". Not only is there an enormous backstory attached that people willfully choose to remain ignorant to, all kinds of people holding active positions in the highest relevant places are corroborating this. Even more importantly perhaps, part of the story is a decades-long disinformation program conducted against the US population and government itself, by rouge elements in the intelligence community.
  - lisasays 3y ago
    Worth remembering that if in 2010 you claimed that the US government was spying on everyone via everything, you'd be called a conspiracy-nut, we now know that it was true, what so many people were claiming before that. For one thing your assumption here just isn't true. You might have been called that in major media outlets -- but within the tech community it had been widely acknowledged (since the late 90s or so) that such surveillance was most likely happening. And precursors of such technology were referenced in congressional hearings back in the 70s. This was all discussed openly and there was nothing conspiratorial about the topic at all. For another -- just because certain things in the past that have been derided as conpiracy-fodder and then turned out to be true (MKULTRA, say) doesn't mean that some other thing X (that you happen to find nifty to believe in at the moment) just might be true, or will also be validated as such some day. In short -- the presence "conspiracy-nut" stigma about something has no bearing on its scientific validity whatsoever. Either for or against. But, I wouldn't believe it's false just based on "it couldn't have been hidden for this long". No - one wisely judges them to be most likely false based on (1) lack of physical evidence, (2) Occam's Razor. Not because of what you're saying (which doesn't have any bearing on the topic at all).
    - RiceAndWater 3y ago
      You might have been called that in major media outlets -- but within the tech community it had been widely acknowledged (since the late 90s or so) that such surveillance was most likely happening. You realize how easily this point can be applied to UFO discourse, right?
- blazespin 3y ago
  Well, did it remain secret? Seems like this has been openly recognized for quite awhile, but propaganda forces at play made it seems like you're a nutjob to believe it.
- graderjs 3y ago
  It wasn't secret. It was covered in disinformation so you would dismiss it, as you have, until it was officially confirmed, like it seems to be now. Previous government insiders have come forward with the same story, but have been dismissed, and the whole topic seen as crazy, because the carefully crafted disinformation counterintelligence campaign was working as intended. That, along with black special access programs (like described in the article), covered with classified programs, is how you keep it, not secret, but "partially occluded." The question is not: how? But: why? The answer is because they were afraid and in denial because it challenged their authority, and they wanted us to be in the same fear and denial, because then they can maintain "control". Maybe now it's shifted. And that's good. Not because everybody gets to know there's aliens, but because the governing corporate superstructure is choosing to no longer continue to act like scared little idiots. And I think that will be better for all of us.
Loquebantur 3y ago
That is blatant ignorance. More specifically, you are entirely ignoring the context here. > Other intelligence officials, both active and retired, with knowledge of these programs through their work in various agencies, have independently provided similar, corroborating information, both on and off the record. > The whistleblower, David Charles Grusch, 36, a decorated former combat officer in Afghanistan, is a veteran of the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) and the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO). He served as the reconnaissance office’s representative to the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force from 2019-2021. From late 2021 to July 2022, he was the NGA’s co-lead for UAP analysis and its representative to the task force.
- lisasays 3y ago
  That's not evidence. That's hearsay. Fragments, please. Or photos, or at least reasonably credible scientific reports describing these fragments. Or at least something resembling, you know -- first-hand evidence. Otherwise there's nothing to talk about here. Can't believe I have to explain this on HN.
  - awhitehat 3y ago
    I hate to be pedantic, b--actually, that's not true; I enjoy it plenty well. Hearsay is a TYPE of evidence, albeit not a particularly reliable type of evidence. But you are correct, it is hearsay, and in fact, its second-hand hearsay. But more to Loquebantur's point here (I think this was his point), this IS fundamentally different than similar claims that came before. You have one guy from the government making these sorts of claims (that's not the different part, this next part is), and you have 2 other decorated government officials and colleagues willing to, not only speaking highly of Grusch's integrity, but CORROBORATING HIS EXACT CLAIMS, and even going on to provide a further anecdotes. That's not what normally happens. Also, it is fundamentally different for this reason as well: All of this information and whatever Grusch learned was provided to congress, behind closed door to those with the clearance to hear it. As far as I am aware of, this level of type of information has never been provided to congress before. This not insignificant; Congress has the the power to subpoena information, compel testimony, and ultimately verify or debunk these claims and information. And ultimately, if they deem it pertinent to do so, they have the autonomy to inform the American public. Now, not to totally invalidate your other point: I do think it is important to keep in mind here that Grusch himself has not seen any direct or hard evidence of 'materials of exotic origin'. He is merely saying that several high-level individuals have confided in him what is presumably first hand experiences, which, as you know, is second-hand hearsay. So this leaves open the possibility that the individuals who were confiding in Grusch, were fooling themselves, were in some way deceived, or perhaps even wanting to fool Grusch himself.
Timon3 3y ago
Of course evidence would be much better (though I'm not sure what kind of evidence I would actually trust). But if the story is true, it makes sense that we're not seeing anything: given that they're talking about an arms race with other countries, the US would not want to show any details that adversaries might not already know. Since the US government looked over everything they wouldn't allow actual evidence to be released. I'm not saying this is true or false, but if it's true, we'd expect no actual evidence.
- lisasays 3y ago
  So lack of evidence it itself -- a form of evidence? I'm not sure what to say to that.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    How did you get that from what I wrote?
  - hulitu 3y ago
    I presume you haven't seen any news lately. /s
  - zarnch 3y ago
    It's known as the Appeal to Ignorance fallacy in intro to critical thinking classes.
graderjs 3y ago
I totally agree. You say you’ve been covering up some big project for 70 years? Okay, where are the results? Otherwise your just fronting, desperate to cover your ignorance for what you don’t understand and which challenges your authority. This is the governing superstructure’s chance to step up. I hope it takes it

spfzero 3y ago

Its hard to imagine so many people could have known about this for so long, yet it remained secret. I expect you could keep something like an assassination secret since everyone who knows about it is probably in some way complicit. Wouldn't be the case here. Also of course the energy required to get to Earth from somewhere else, for an organism that used any kind of "vehicle" we could recognize as such, would be enormous. But, good to stay open-minded.

capableweb 3y ago
Worth remembering that if in 2010 you claimed that the US government was spying on everyone via everything, you'd be called a conspiracy-nut, we now know that it was true, what so many people were claiming before that. I agree that probably there needs to be more evidence than "trust me, I've done this for a long time" in order for us to assert there is extra-terrestrial intelligence. But, I wouldn't believe it's false just based on "it couldn't have been hidden for this long".
- Loquebantur 3y ago
  This isn't just "some guy claiming whatever". Not only is there an enormous backstory attached that people willfully choose to remain ignorant to, all kinds of people holding active positions in the highest relevant places are corroborating this. Even more importantly perhaps, part of the story is a decades-long disinformation program conducted against the US population and government itself, by rouge elements in the intelligence community.
- lisasays 3y ago
  Worth remembering that if in 2010 you claimed that the US government was spying on everyone via everything, you'd be called a conspiracy-nut, we now know that it was true, what so many people were claiming before that. For one thing your assumption here just isn't true. You might have been called that in major media outlets -- but within the tech community it had been widely acknowledged (since the late 90s or so) that such surveillance was most likely happening. And precursors of such technology were referenced in congressional hearings back in the 70s. This was all discussed openly and there was nothing conspiratorial about the topic at all. For another -- just because certain things in the past that have been derided as conpiracy-fodder and then turned out to be true (MKULTRA, say) doesn't mean that some other thing X (that you happen to find nifty to believe in at the moment) just might be true, or will also be validated as such some day. In short -- the presence "conspiracy-nut" stigma about something has no bearing on its scientific validity whatsoever. Either for or against. But, I wouldn't believe it's false just based on "it couldn't have been hidden for this long". No - one wisely judges them to be most likely false based on (1) lack of physical evidence, (2) Occam's Razor. Not because of what you're saying (which doesn't have any bearing on the topic at all).
  - RiceAndWater 3y ago
    You might have been called that in major media outlets -- but within the tech community it had been widely acknowledged (since the late 90s or so) that such surveillance was most likely happening. You realize how easily this point can be applied to UFO discourse, right?
blazespin 3y ago
Well, did it remain secret? Seems like this has been openly recognized for quite awhile, but propaganda forces at play made it seems like you're a nutjob to believe it.
graderjs 3y ago
It wasn't secret. It was covered in disinformation so you would dismiss it, as you have, until it was officially confirmed, like it seems to be now. Previous government insiders have come forward with the same story, but have been dismissed, and the whole topic seen as crazy, because the carefully crafted disinformation counterintelligence campaign was working as intended. That, along with black special access programs (like described in the article), covered with classified programs, is how you keep it, not secret, but "partially occluded." The question is not: how? But: why? The answer is because they were afraid and in denial because it challenged their authority, and they wanted us to be in the same fear and denial, because then they can maintain "control". Maybe now it's shifted. And that's good. Not because everybody gets to know there's aliens, but because the governing corporate superstructure is choosing to no longer continue to act like scared little idiots. And I think that will be better for all of us.

Loquebantur 3y ago

That is blatant ignorance. More specifically, you are entirely ignoring the context here. > Other intelligence officials, both active and retired, with knowledge of these programs through their work in various agencies, have independently provided similar, corroborating information, both on and off the record. > The whistleblower, David Charles Grusch, 36, a decorated former combat officer in Afghanistan, is a veteran of the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) and the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO). He served as the reconnaissance office’s representative to the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force from 2019-2021. From late 2021 to July 2022, he was the NGA’s co-lead for UAP analysis and its representative to the task force.

lisasays 3y ago
That's not evidence. That's hearsay. Fragments, please. Or photos, or at least reasonably credible scientific reports describing these fragments. Or at least something resembling, you know -- first-hand evidence. Otherwise there's nothing to talk about here. Can't believe I have to explain this on HN.
- awhitehat 3y ago
  I hate to be pedantic, b--actually, that's not true; I enjoy it plenty well. Hearsay is a TYPE of evidence, albeit not a particularly reliable type of evidence. But you are correct, it is hearsay, and in fact, its second-hand hearsay. But more to Loquebantur's point here (I think this was his point), this IS fundamentally different than similar claims that came before. You have one guy from the government making these sorts of claims (that's not the different part, this next part is), and you have 2 other decorated government officials and colleagues willing to, not only speaking highly of Grusch's integrity, but CORROBORATING HIS EXACT CLAIMS, and even going on to provide a further anecdotes. That's not what normally happens. Also, it is fundamentally different for this reason as well: All of this information and whatever Grusch learned was provided to congress, behind closed door to those with the clearance to hear it. As far as I am aware of, this level of type of information has never been provided to congress before. This not insignificant; Congress has the the power to subpoena information, compel testimony, and ultimately verify or debunk these claims and information. And ultimately, if they deem it pertinent to do so, they have the autonomy to inform the American public. Now, not to totally invalidate your other point: I do think it is important to keep in mind here that Grusch himself has not seen any direct or hard evidence of 'materials of exotic origin'. He is merely saying that several high-level individuals have confided in him what is presumably first hand experiences, which, as you know, is second-hand hearsay. So this leaves open the possibility that the individuals who were confiding in Grusch, were fooling themselves, were in some way deceived, or perhaps even wanting to fool Grusch himself.

Timon3 3y ago

Of course evidence would be much better (though I'm not sure what kind of evidence I would actually trust). But if the story is true, it makes sense that we're not seeing anything: given that they're talking about an arms race with other countries, the US would not want to show any details that adversaries might not already know. Since the US government looked over everything they wouldn't allow actual evidence to be released. I'm not saying this is true or false, but if it's true, we'd expect no actual evidence.

lisasays 3y ago
So lack of evidence it itself -- a form of evidence? I'm not sure what to say to that.
- Timon3 3y ago
  How did you get that from what I wrote?
- hulitu 3y ago
  I presume you haven't seen any news lately. /s
- zarnch 3y ago
  It's known as the Appeal to Ignorance fallacy in intro to critical thinking classes.

graderjs 3y ago

I totally agree. You say you’ve been covering up some big project for 70 years? Okay, where are the results? Otherwise your just fronting, desperate to cover your ignorance for what you don’t understand and which challenges your authority. This is the governing superstructure’s chance to step up. I hope it takes it