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“Cryptocurrencies can work, we’ve just never had a properly decentralized system yet” is becoming the “Communism can work, we just haven’t really tried it yet”.

“Cryptocurrencies can work, we’ve just never had a properly decentralized system yet” is becoming the “Communism can work, we just haven’t really tried it yet”. This is yet another example of the crypto boom going bust, which has been a series of unregulated and utterly opaque exchanges collapsing. Over and over again, the entire ecosystem has been snake oil salesmen, who are selling snake oil to other snake oil salesmen. And the crypto purists will cry “oh, but Bitcoin, it would work if we all held dear to the purity of the concept and kept our relevant info in lockboxes in our panic rooms!” And the cynical, but also correct, among us will mutter “well that’s cool, but no normal human is going to do that, and the valuation of whole thing is based on mass uptake, and that’s contingent on having middlemen do a lot of the ugly gruntwork, because otherwise it’s far too difficult for normal users to ever bother with.” And those middlemen are, again, invariably, snake oil salemen who will cut and run.

hiatus 3y ago
> which has been a series of unregulated and utterly opaque exchanges collapsing It seems the issue with Binance was that it was running afoul of regulations. In what way is that "unregulated"?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > the issue with Binance was that it was running afoul of regulations. In what way is that "unregulated"? “Blatant disregard of the federal securities laws and the investor and market protections these laws provide” means acting unregulated, even if one is properly subject to regulation [1]. [1] https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/complaints/2023/comp-pr2023-101.pdf https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/complaints/2023/comp-pr...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mhluongo 3y ago
Bitcoin is working. Ethereum is working. In what world do you think that "Bitcoin working" implies all centralized bad actors are washed out? All middleman are toast? This stuff takes time, and the existence of middlemen doesn't negate the premise that blocks keep being mined without censorship.
- methodical 3y ago
  Yes, except of course the fact that Bitcoin/Eth without the ability to convert it to fiat is functionally worthless, except for the people with their heads in the clouds who think that at some point the entire global economy will move to Bitcoin (which can't even handle a fraction of the transactional throughput of MC or Visa). Crypto, while nice in theory, has proven to not work in reality, time and time again. Centralization is necessary for a lot of niceties in order to make crypto a functional currency, and yet centralization is also counter to all of the values of crypto. Anybody still hanging onto crypto is probably latching onto greater-fool theory and hoping they aren't the greatest fool, although at this point, they likely are the end of the line.
  - Karunamon 3y ago
    Your first statement is strictly false, it is not difficult to find places to spend either of those currencies. (Thereby disproving your third statement) Your second is a strawman, the "entire global economy" need not moved to crypto for it to be useful. The entire rest of your post is a stack of shallow, dismissive tropes that contribute nothing to the discussion.
    - methodical 3y ago
      And yet you don't directly provide any evidence to the contrary, highlighting that the person who is providing nothing is actually you and your comment of unsupported contradictions. Does your utility company take crypto? Mine certainly doesn't. Therefore, in order for me to use crypto as a currency, I need to be able to convert it to fiat. Point out where exactly this is incorrect, or in what way crypto can address it without making some dreamy assumption that the world shifts to using crypto as the global currency (which will simply never happen). Did I say nobody accepted crypto? Nope, never said that.
    - kkielhofner 3y ago
      > it is not difficult to find places to spend either of those currencies I beg to differ. There's a reason actually paying with Bitcoin/ETH/crypto somewhere (anywhere) is celebrated on crypto twitter, /r/bitcoin, etc. After 14 years it's still a novel and rare enough experience people feel the need to record videos of it and post them online to celebrate "adoption". Imagine sending a tweet in 2020 (14 years after founding of Twitter) being noteworthy. Ridiculous, right? That's what crypto looks like to those of us not trapped in the bubble/echo chamber.
lesuorac 3y ago
How many recessions / depressions need to happen before you claim that fiat money doesn't work? If you can exchange crypto for goods and services then works. period; no need to move any goal posts.
- Karunamon 3y ago
  It really is that simple. For all its problems, the fact that I can move my money anywhere, without middle men, is the main promise of crypto fulfilled, everything else on top of that is gravy.
- majormajor 3y ago
  Recessions/depressions seem like more of a potential indictment of capitalism than currency. Crypto would certainly not eliminate those in any scenario. Many fiat currencies pass the "exchange for goods and services" test you propose. Many crypto coins would fail them, depending on how broadly we want acceptance to be.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > How many recessions / depressions need to happen before you claim that fiat money doesn't work? This category of claim baffles me. Is the hypothesis there weren't wars or recessions when the world was on the gold standard?
jcq3 3y ago
Cryptos aren't dependent on CEX to work, your analogy is wrong.
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  Then why did crypto exchanges come into existence, if they don't address any need?

hiatus 3y ago

> which has been a series of unregulated and utterly opaque exchanges collapsing It seems the issue with Binance was that it was running afoul of regulations. In what way is that "unregulated"?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> the issue with Binance was that it was running afoul of regulations. In what way is that "unregulated"? “Blatant disregard of the federal securities laws and the investor and market protections these laws provide” means acting unregulated, even if one is properly subject to regulation [1]. [1] https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/complaints/2023/comp-pr2023-101.pdf https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/complaints/2023/comp-pr...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mhluongo 3y ago

Bitcoin is working. Ethereum is working. In what world do you think that "Bitcoin working" implies all centralized bad actors are washed out? All middleman are toast? This stuff takes time, and the existence of middlemen doesn't negate the premise that blocks keep being mined without censorship.

methodical 3y ago
Yes, except of course the fact that Bitcoin/Eth without the ability to convert it to fiat is functionally worthless, except for the people with their heads in the clouds who think that at some point the entire global economy will move to Bitcoin (which can't even handle a fraction of the transactional throughput of MC or Visa). Crypto, while nice in theory, has proven to not work in reality, time and time again. Centralization is necessary for a lot of niceties in order to make crypto a functional currency, and yet centralization is also counter to all of the values of crypto. Anybody still hanging onto crypto is probably latching onto greater-fool theory and hoping they aren't the greatest fool, although at this point, they likely are the end of the line.
- Karunamon 3y ago
  Your first statement is strictly false, it is not difficult to find places to spend either of those currencies. (Thereby disproving your third statement) Your second is a strawman, the "entire global economy" need not moved to crypto for it to be useful. The entire rest of your post is a stack of shallow, dismissive tropes that contribute nothing to the discussion.
  - methodical 3y ago
    And yet you don't directly provide any evidence to the contrary, highlighting that the person who is providing nothing is actually you and your comment of unsupported contradictions. Does your utility company take crypto? Mine certainly doesn't. Therefore, in order for me to use crypto as a currency, I need to be able to convert it to fiat. Point out where exactly this is incorrect, or in what way crypto can address it without making some dreamy assumption that the world shifts to using crypto as the global currency (which will simply never happen). Did I say nobody accepted crypto? Nope, never said that.
  - kkielhofner 3y ago
    > it is not difficult to find places to spend either of those currencies I beg to differ. There's a reason actually paying with Bitcoin/ETH/crypto somewhere (anywhere) is celebrated on crypto twitter, /r/bitcoin, etc. After 14 years it's still a novel and rare enough experience people feel the need to record videos of it and post them online to celebrate "adoption". Imagine sending a tweet in 2020 (14 years after founding of Twitter) being noteworthy. Ridiculous, right? That's what crypto looks like to those of us not trapped in the bubble/echo chamber.

lesuorac 3y ago

How many recessions / depressions need to happen before you claim that fiat money doesn't work? If you can exchange crypto for goods and services then works. period; no need to move any goal posts.

Karunamon 3y ago
It really is that simple. For all its problems, the fact that I can move my money anywhere, without middle men, is the main promise of crypto fulfilled, everything else on top of that is gravy.
majormajor 3y ago
Recessions/depressions seem like more of a potential indictment of capitalism than currency. Crypto would certainly not eliminate those in any scenario. Many fiat currencies pass the "exchange for goods and services" test you propose. Many crypto coins would fail them, depending on how broadly we want acceptance to be.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> How many recessions / depressions need to happen before you claim that fiat money doesn't work? This category of claim baffles me. Is the hypothesis there weren't wars or recessions when the world was on the gold standard?

jcq3 3y ago

Cryptos aren't dependent on CEX to work, your analogy is wrong.

anigbrowl 3y ago
Then why did crypto exchanges come into existence, if they don't address any need?