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The history and role of fashion in the software industry
- dotcoma 3y ago"The computer industry is the only industry that is more fashion-driven than women's fashion" -- Larry Ellison
- bitwize 3y ago[flagged]
- fluoridation 3y agoIs it "toxically masculine" to dress however one likes?
- escapedmoose 3y agoIt seems they were describing the culture, not the clothing, as “toxically masculine.”
- fluoridation 3y agoI would say they were describing the people. I didn't realize you can't dress in comfortable clothing you like without making some kind of statement about gender roles or whatever.
- burnished 3y agoNo, of course not, toxic masculinity refers to a set of beliefs about masculinity that hurt men (and everyone around them).
- fluoridation 3y agoThat's what seems to be implied by the GP, though. The only thing being referenced in connection to that term is how those people were dressed, and that they were "gross".
- omginternets 3y agoIt’s common to take appearance and dress as an indicator of such beliefs though, however misguided that might be.
- bawolff 3y agoAre programming socks actually a popular fashion in progrmming? I'm not sure i have ever seen anyone wear them in real life. Edit: i didn't realize this was a term for anime-ish knee high socks. Regardless i think my point still stands.
- solarmist 3y agoNope, not to my knowledge. It's just a meme.
- bamfly 3y agoThis is the first time I've encountered the term. Had to search to find out WTF it means. Seems like it's mostly a joke?
- bawolff 3y agoI just googled based on your comment. I assumed this was just socks with programming jokes written on them, but appearently it is actually a term for knee-high socks https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/programming-socks https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/programming-socks I certainly hadn't heard of this either.
- RandallBrown 3y agoI've never heard of this either and thought they were referring to a trend from 10 years ago with wearing brightly colored socks. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/fashion/in-silicon-valley-socks-make-the-tech-entrepreneur.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/fashion/in-silicon-valley...
- cuttysnark 3y agoThe only popular fashion (if you can even call it that) I've ever observed with any consistency is "hoodie" and "graphic tee". More rare, but worth noting, is shorts-when-its-pants-weather. The lack of dress-code just translated into whatever a person would be wearing if they had stayed at home. I wouldn't notice a person's socks unless they asked me to.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- switchbak 3y agoSo programming culture was uniformly toxic during that 30 year period, and also those men are “gross”? It’s hard to see how this is anything but a low effort troll.
- burnished 3y agoThat does seem to be the consensus of the people who were there for it, yes.
- switchbak 3y agoI was a programmer in the 90s, and no, things were not that simple. Problems, sure, but this kind of black and white revisionism helps no one.
- omginternets 3y agoThat’s the consensus of a vocal minority on the internet today, which is often toxic in its own right.
- bamfly 3y agoI don't mind the impending death of the suit, but I hope it doesn't get too weird to wear blazers and sport coats in informal settings, in my lifetime. They're so very nice. Wish I'd started wearing them years ago. Like a hoodie, but looks way better and has a ton more pockets. I'd hate to see that go the way of nice-looking hats (you can't wear those anymore unless you're 80 years old or want to look like a douchebag—your only option if you're not in one of those categories is bad-looking hats, which is unfortunate) That and loafers. I'd been slipping on my (tied) sneakers for years, while all that time I could have had a shoe designed for that and that looks way nicer and lasts far longer! In America, you can dress those all the way up to business formal and down to going-to-the-grocery-store! So versatile. What a fool I was. Incidentally, we in (at least certain segments of) this industry definitely have a look. I've got a pretty good record of spotting tech workers in non-tech-heavy areas and settings based solely on clothes & affect taken in from a distance, and I don't just mean when one's wearing legible clothing with some tech slogans or logos on them.
- H1Supreme 3y agoTotally agree! When I was still in an office I'd wear a sports jacket and nice leather shoes almost every day. Even if some of my colleagues wore sweat pants.
- patrickmay 3y agoI absolutely agree with you about blazers and sport coats. The more pockets the better.
- majormajor 3y agoAgree with you that there's a nice medium level of "nice clothes" that look more formal and are more generally comfortable (though things like "jeans, but made from synthetics so they stretch and move more lightly" and such are making inroads in the comfort department). > Incidentally, we in (at least certain segments of) this industry definitely have a look. I've got a pretty good record of spotting tech workers in non-tech-heavy areas and settings based solely on clothes & affect taken in from a distance, and I don't just mean when one's wearing legible clothing with some tech slogans or logos on them. IMO, for men, there's a handful of main looks, and they're all pretty different for each other. "Nerd", "scruffy hacker", "fitness bro" are the ones I see most frequently.
- photochemsyn 3y ago> "The foppish habits of Kadrish are an old story often repeated. The wise animal blends into its surroundings." - Leto II, Children of Dune
- ZephyrBlu 3y agoI had no idea Steve Jobs wanted Issey Miyake to make an Apple uniform. That would have been sick. Pleats for everyone!
- comfypotato 3y agoIt happened and was rejected by employees. The black turtleneck and, if I remember correctly, jeans.
- stronglikedan 3y agoI don't blame them. I hate it when even a collared shirt brushes up against my neck. I tried a turtleneck as a kid, and it felt suffocating.
- reaperman 3y agoOTOH turtlenecks being ubiquitous would make it super convenient to hide evidence of debaucherous weekend activities.
- Jun8 3y agoOh boy oh boy oh boy, this brings back sweet & sour memories: about 10 years I had this idea of a web site for programmer/hacker types, even bought hackerstyle.com. It would have suggestions that you could select and also would include an “outfit compiler” that would process your selections to check for matching colors, fashion sense, etc. I got super hyped about this, and evidently had enough of a reality distortion field to convince a colleague to apply to YC with the idea. You guessed it: we couldn't even make it to the interview round, she moved to CA and is now a successful director at Instacart, and I’m here reminiscing on a late lunch break. Should have hold on to that domain, though, just checked and it’s for sale for $3000+.
- pc86 3y agoSomeone must have seen this, $3700 now :)
- uKVZe85V 3y agoFrom the title I thought it was about tools/frameworks/language fashion. Not clothes fashion. ;-)
- DoreenMichele 3y agoSome people actually like uniforms. They don't like having to think about what to wear. Or people with sensory issues like wearing the same thing over and over and a uniform allows that without people acting like you're weird. I wonder if any company has ever issued a uniform, said you can just wear this, but made it optional.
- nluken 3y agoMinimalism is always in. Even in high fashion, Issey Miyake, whose association with Steve Jobs is called out in the article, remains beloved beyond his death. Perhaps it's not explicitly a uniform per se, but you could build a fashionable psuedo-uniform out of only a few garments relatively cheaply and without getting looks like you mentioned. That kind of fashion isn't for everyone, but neither is the color and fit maximalism that seem to dominate today's outfits.
- diablerouge 3y agoI made a uniform of my own - same set of black tshirts, black jeans, one or two slightly different pairs of shoes. It was great for a bit! I felt more well dressed, I was always comfortable, and it was incredibly functional. Now I realize I like fun clothes too much to stick to the uniform always. But it's nice to have it around to fall back on.
- Solvency 3y agoSweatpants and a tshirt require zero brainspace to wear.
- makeitdouble 3y agoI see/hear more and more people build an uniform of their own. Basically the same kind of tops and identical bottoms bought in set and renewed identical as they wear out. I'm half in that camp, and it's damn convenient.
- omginternets 3y ago>Some people actually like uniforms. I'm one of them, but perhaps not for the reason you'd expect. People tend to forget that uniforms offer a form of protection. When I was in the military, my commanding officer was an extremely competent man, the likes of which I had never seen before and only rarely seen since. One day, I saw him leaving the base in his civilian clothes, and did a double-take. Here was a man in his early 40's dressed like an overgrown teenager: bleach-faded jeans, an oversized branded tee, flat brimmed hat (labels & holographic stickers still attached), etc. To put it bluntly, he looked like a punk. Had he shown up to work in that attire, and given me orders, it would have been an uphill battle for him to earn my respect. I exercise a lot of caution when judging people's appearance, and I've long understood that each of us also harbors a degree of unconscious judgement. But this episode forced me to come to terms with the sheer magnitude of that unconscious influence, and with the fantasy that we can rid ourselves of it without sacrificing some amount of individuality. I've come to the conclusion that some degree of uniformity--perhaps just a dress code--can serve to facilitate the upward mobility of the disadvantaged. It's not perfect, but I think it's a whole lot better than today's "anything goes" standards.
- enw 3y agoI low-key like some dress codes, as it gives me an incentive to dress well without looking like a dork, and that I can brush off as "oh it's just the company rules".
- jollyllama 3y agoThe demise of the suit is yet another contributing factor to the perpetual infantilization of the millenial.
- EatingWithForks 3y agoI actually don't know if suits going out of fashion should be considered infantilization of one specific generation in particular; suits have been simplified progressively for decades before that. At some point the simplest suit fir casual everyday wear will be no suit.
- jollyllama 3y agoThe infantilization occurs with the relative decrease of formality from generation to generation. It's the fact that you'll never dress as formally at work as your parents did.
- williamdclt 3y agoI see it the other way around. Newer generation aren't being imposed a codified uniform by older generations anymore and have a lot more freedom to express themselves through clothing, I think it's much less infantilising actually
- omginternets 3y agoI suppose the question at hand is whether it is infantile to want to express one’s individuality at all times, or whether it is infantile to assimilate into a group. As with most things, both extremes are probably undesirable at the scale of a society. I also think it’s hard to deny that the needle has tipped very far in a particular direction.
- jollyllama 3y agoYou don't actually have freedom, there is still a uniform. The same thing will happen if you wear a suit to a jeans and a T shirt office as if you wore jeans and a T shirt to a suit office.
- acabal 3y agoJust because suits are going out of fashion, doesn't mean there isn't a dress code anymore. A programmer at a typical startup has a dress code that's just as strict as a suit and tie ever was - except that now it's unspoken. In other words, try showing up to your job as a programmer at your typical west coast startup wearing a fine suit and tie, just because you like the look. (Like I do!) I think you'll quickly find that the de facto dress code is, in fact, old jeans plus graphic t-shirt/hoodie, or flat-front chinos plus gingham shirt, and that your coworkers are going to sneer at you for your choice to buck this unspoken dress code. Wearing a suit and tie for pleasure to your basic programming job might even limit your career, because it might signal to your coworkers and bosses that you're not a team player. So much for no more dress codes! Fashions don't deserve to last forever - suits and ties are inevitably fading away even as we might hand-wring about the continuing destruction of fine dress in American society. But to suggest that dress codes are disappearing is not correct. Dress codes are as alive as they ever were, now they're just unspoken.
- makeitdouble 3y agoNot west coast by an ocean, but in my experience there's no specific dress code as you try to cast it, instead there's a dismissal of suits in particular. You can dress up in Goth fashion and play it Cyberpunk if you want, people will whole fully accept it. And it's also not unspoken at all, startup culture is straight pitched as disrupting traditional business, which makes suits a faux pas. I'd compare it to wearing a Jonny Walker cosplay at a Anonymous Alcoholics meeting. It's not the dress code, it's what you're trying to convey.
- notacoward 3y ago> a typical startup has a dress code that's just as strict as a suit and tie ever was - except that now it's unspoken Kind of like the idea of "leaderless" or "structureless" groups, in which the leadership hierarchy practically always ends up being obscured but no less real. Here's a really good old essay about this phenomenon in early feminism. https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm IMX the "Silicon Valley uniform" doesn't really have anything to do with being more casual or relaxed. It's just another kind of conformity, comforting for those who do like to conform and stressful for those who don't or can't.
- beachy 3y agoWhen I worked as a mainframe engineer at IBM last century, the dress code was strictly suit and tie, and I carried my tools in a toolcase disguised as a briefcase. It was quite the nightmare climbing inside a 3890 check sorter with suit and tie on. The machines were literally puiled high with oily paper dust due to the millions of checks that fired through them continuously and you aways emerged filthy and dusty. I constantly fielded questions from the computer operators as to why I had to wear a monkey suit when I was obviously more of a mechanic (sidenote: I married one so perhaps the suit had some sartorial impact after all). At that time there was apparently only one IBM office in the world where the dress code was relaxed which was Darwin Australia due to the extreme heat. The dress code there was dress shorts and long socks, something like a safari suit.