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This is an exercise in power. It's basically the online version of every labor dispute ever. In any labor dispute workers test the water to see how much power

This is an exercise in power. It's basically the online version of every labor dispute ever. In any labor dispute workers test the water to see how much power they weild. They threaten or invoke some sort of action (like a strike.) Management respond with lockouts, terminations and so on. Ultimately there is usually some resolution where both sides understand their co-dependence, but equally understand the limits of their own power. Reddit is following the playback here. Moderators instigate a "strike" of sorts. They get locked out. Management tests the water to see if they weild actual community power, or are just a small group of malcontents. It will be interesting to see this play out.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago
Mods have no real power, because there are any number of volunteers waiting in the wings to take over to be able to wield that same power. In most subs most care about having that power to silence and punish people they dislike more than to do actual good, IMO.
- bheadmaster 3y ago
  Exactly. They are not workers, they do it for free.
  - bruce511 3y ago
    Even volunteers have power. The question is how much? Often workers (paid or unpaid) believe they are irreplaceable, and start acting that way. It behoves management to find out if that is true. It can also help the relationships a lot if the workers find out its not true. We're all in relationships with others all the time. I can push my suppliers some, but not too hard. I complain about other suppliers, but in some cases have little power so walk softly. Reddit moderators believe they have power over API pricing. I guess we'll see who is right.
  - Sunspark 3y ago
    The majority yes, but some of them are Reddit employees and are paid.
- TulliusCicero 3y ago
  > In most subs most care about having that power to silence and punish people they dislike more than to do actual good, IMO. I strongly disagree with this. What you describe isn't most mods, it's just the loudest form of modding. Mods who do the banal tasks well will hardly even be noticeable. I mod a few subs, in my experience most mods are just kinda boring.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    I mod about 10 subs myself, biggest with just over a million subs. I think it's absolutely most mods. Maybe not on the smaller subs that are truly community orientated, and maybe not on some of the bigger truly well run subs, but on most subs? Sure.
    - Sunspark 3y ago
      I agree with you, and some mods are actually Reddit employees. I have had an account permanently suspended by a Reddit employee mod, because he could. It's not true that all mods are volunteers.
      - bruce511 3y ago
        As an aside, the paid Reddit mods are likely to be on the side of reddit being profitable and able to pay their salaries, and thus support price hikes. Especially in an era of layoffs. I'm speculating here, I have no insight myself.
- hobofan 3y ago
  > because there are any number of volunteers waiting in the wings to take over to be able to wield that same power. Yes, and that's why the "good" mods have power (against Reddit), because they know not to abuse that modding power. Bad mods will destroy the spirit of a community in months if not weeks, tanking their utility and usage. Reddit knows that (or did know that at some point).
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    > Yes, and that's why the "good" mods have power (against Reddit), because they know not to abuse that modding power. That's not true. Mods abuse power all the time and admins don't give a crap. The good mods are good mods because they're not petty dicks.
USB5 3y ago
>a "strike" of sorts Why is everyone calling this boycott a "strike?"
- bruce511 3y ago
  The correct term is "industrial action". Its a kind of digital strike (locking out public users) but it's not a strike in terms of labour stoppage. Hence the air quotes.
- deredede 3y ago
  Because the moderators provide (unpaid) labor for Reddit (or SO, to make the parallel with another post where you are asking the same question).
- bruce511 3y ago
  A boycott implies customers taking their business elsewhere. If this was simply people boycotting reddit there's nothing they can do. However these are "more than customers" who are foing more than boycott. They are actively "locking the store" so others can't use it. It's not a strike (they're not withholding work) but it's also not a boycott since they are taking actual actions that lock out other customers.
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    you're describing a strong armed (because enforced) picket
joe__f 3y ago
Depends on your jurisdiction, what you described sounds like a labour dispute in a very employee hostile place. Where I live it's illegal to fire people who threaten to strike
- mjr00 3y ago
  Except for the most part, Reddit mods aren't employees; they're not even volunteers. They're users and customers of the site. They just happen to be users with access to more features than most.
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    they're not users nor customers, they're the product that reddit is selling
    - Funnyduck99 3y ago
      reddit mods are notoriously terrible and have giant egos so honestly im a fan for many of them getting banned
    - notpahimar 3y ago
      Lurkers are the product. Moderators are unpaid employees, which is why they are being treated like dogshit, same as any other employee. Reddit staff forgets they don't have much to lose by walking away.
    - chii 3y ago
      It's as though the cows reject to being slaughtered!
- bruce511 3y ago
  Techicallyvyhry haven't been fired, just sort-of muzzled. The law has evolved to help balance the relationship between employer and employee. It dictates limits on employer behaviour and also limits on employee behaviour. Usually there is a formal structure (union) to act as the employee representative. None of which is in play here. There are no employees, just volunteers. There is no union. Yhe action appears to be somewhat arbitrary. Why private groups? Why 48 hours? Has there been any formal discussions to the root dispute? Is there a union for API users? What link us there between API users and moderators? So yes, the response seems heavy-handed, but the proposed action seems premature. The mods are testing their power and Reddit is responding. And there's no law governing any of this, on either side.
cookiengineer 3y ago
Note that the difference here is much more ridiculous: there is no co dependence because reddit doesn't pay moderators anything. Therefore management tries to excercise their power over nothing(?) in costs.
- bruce511 3y ago
  Costs can be more than money. Mods are exercising their power. Reddit is responding with their own power. Both sides are just demonstrating they have power. Both will ultimately recognise the limitations of their power, which may ultimately be a lot more, or possibly a lot less, than they believe.
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    True. Some mods are an exercise in pettiness
- klodolph 3y ago
  I don't think that's an internally consistent way of looking at the situation.
- 93po 3y ago
  Additionally I imagine 90% of reddit traffic is in the top subreddits which already have corporate-controlled moderators who don't care about any of this
jtode 3y ago
Social inertia is working okay for Facebook... kinda... let's go with what kinda works, guys! (Might as well, the alternative is they just pack up their moneytables and get the hell out of our temple...)

PrimeMcFly 3y ago

Mods have no real power, because there are any number of volunteers waiting in the wings to take over to be able to wield that same power. In most subs most care about having that power to silence and punish people they dislike more than to do actual good, IMO.

bheadmaster 3y ago
Exactly. They are not workers, they do it for free.
- bruce511 3y ago
  Even volunteers have power. The question is how much? Often workers (paid or unpaid) believe they are irreplaceable, and start acting that way. It behoves management to find out if that is true. It can also help the relationships a lot if the workers find out its not true. We're all in relationships with others all the time. I can push my suppliers some, but not too hard. I complain about other suppliers, but in some cases have little power so walk softly. Reddit moderators believe they have power over API pricing. I guess we'll see who is right.
- Sunspark 3y ago
  The majority yes, but some of them are Reddit employees and are paid.
TulliusCicero 3y ago
> In most subs most care about having that power to silence and punish people they dislike more than to do actual good, IMO. I strongly disagree with this. What you describe isn't most mods, it's just the loudest form of modding. Mods who do the banal tasks well will hardly even be noticeable. I mod a few subs, in my experience most mods are just kinda boring.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  I mod about 10 subs myself, biggest with just over a million subs. I think it's absolutely most mods. Maybe not on the smaller subs that are truly community orientated, and maybe not on some of the bigger truly well run subs, but on most subs? Sure.
  - Sunspark 3y ago
    I agree with you, and some mods are actually Reddit employees. I have had an account permanently suspended by a Reddit employee mod, because he could. It's not true that all mods are volunteers.
    - bruce511 3y ago
      As an aside, the paid Reddit mods are likely to be on the side of reddit being profitable and able to pay their salaries, and thus support price hikes. Especially in an era of layoffs. I'm speculating here, I have no insight myself.
hobofan 3y ago
> because there are any number of volunteers waiting in the wings to take over to be able to wield that same power. Yes, and that's why the "good" mods have power (against Reddit), because they know not to abuse that modding power. Bad mods will destroy the spirit of a community in months if not weeks, tanking their utility and usage. Reddit knows that (or did know that at some point).
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  > Yes, and that's why the "good" mods have power (against Reddit), because they know not to abuse that modding power. That's not true. Mods abuse power all the time and admins don't give a crap. The good mods are good mods because they're not petty dicks.

USB5 3y ago

>a "strike" of sorts Why is everyone calling this boycott a "strike?"

bruce511 3y ago
The correct term is "industrial action". Its a kind of digital strike (locking out public users) but it's not a strike in terms of labour stoppage. Hence the air quotes.
deredede 3y ago
Because the moderators provide (unpaid) labor for Reddit (or SO, to make the parallel with another post where you are asking the same question).
bruce511 3y ago
A boycott implies customers taking their business elsewhere. If this was simply people boycotting reddit there's nothing they can do. However these are "more than customers" who are foing more than boycott. They are actively "locking the store" so others can't use it. It's not a strike (they're not withholding work) but it's also not a boycott since they are taking actual actions that lock out other customers.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  you're describing a strong armed (because enforced) picket

joe__f 3y ago

Depends on your jurisdiction, what you described sounds like a labour dispute in a very employee hostile place. Where I live it's illegal to fire people who threaten to strike

mjr00 3y ago
Except for the most part, Reddit mods aren't employees; they're not even volunteers. They're users and customers of the site. They just happen to be users with access to more features than most.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  they're not users nor customers, they're the product that reddit is selling
  - Funnyduck99 3y ago
    reddit mods are notoriously terrible and have giant egos so honestly im a fan for many of them getting banned
  - notpahimar 3y ago
    Lurkers are the product. Moderators are unpaid employees, which is why they are being treated like dogshit, same as any other employee. Reddit staff forgets they don't have much to lose by walking away.
  - chii 3y ago
    It's as though the cows reject to being slaughtered!
bruce511 3y ago
Techicallyvyhry haven't been fired, just sort-of muzzled. The law has evolved to help balance the relationship between employer and employee. It dictates limits on employer behaviour and also limits on employee behaviour. Usually there is a formal structure (union) to act as the employee representative. None of which is in play here. There are no employees, just volunteers. There is no union. Yhe action appears to be somewhat arbitrary. Why private groups? Why 48 hours? Has there been any formal discussions to the root dispute? Is there a union for API users? What link us there between API users and moderators? So yes, the response seems heavy-handed, but the proposed action seems premature. The mods are testing their power and Reddit is responding. And there's no law governing any of this, on either side.

cookiengineer 3y ago

Note that the difference here is much more ridiculous: there is no co dependence because reddit doesn't pay moderators anything. Therefore management tries to excercise their power over nothing(?) in costs.

bruce511 3y ago
Costs can be more than money. Mods are exercising their power. Reddit is responding with their own power. Both sides are just demonstrating they have power. Both will ultimately recognise the limitations of their power, which may ultimately be a lot more, or possibly a lot less, than they believe.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  True. Some mods are an exercise in pettiness
klodolph 3y ago
I don't think that's an internally consistent way of looking at the situation.
93po 3y ago
Additionally I imagine 90% of reddit traffic is in the top subreddits which already have corporate-controlled moderators who don't care about any of this

jtode 3y ago

Social inertia is working okay for Facebook... kinda... let's go with what kinda works, guys! (Might as well, the alternative is they just pack up their moneytables and get the hell out of our temple...)